I’ve been doing some thinking

[OblivionDuruza ●]

No, The Tom is not the mod in question as I am aware he is no longer around and have never had any dealing with him. I’ve decided to try and talk this through with certain people, but I want to make clear that it was nobody here.

@Jeff, I don’t look to not fit in or be a pain, or even make you seem old and grumpy, but several posts of yours have been highly offensive. For example your post about post flooding was underhanded and nasty. How is the quantity of posts important? Quality is more important, I doubt there is anyone who can claim to have read all my posts, but if there is, then I will let them make an assessment. As a rule, don’t make accusations without all the facts please.

I’m considering posting exactly what I mean, but I’ll talk to people in private first. I’m not here to be vindictive, I’m here to be a part of this community, in a positive way. And while it may not have been everyone’s intention, I feel very alienated by some of the things that have happened.

[Vendetta ●]

UESP? Fun?

HA!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

That is all.

[Arch-Mage Matt ●]

[Vendetta ●]

I love UESP and every member in it, I just get sick of it when we try to have a little random fun and we get attacked. If we refuse to stop or if we give a short statement asking to let us have a tiny bit of fun, we get a ban threat.

[Arch-Mage Matt ●]

No, you don't, and no, you don't. As I said previously, Moderators usually look the other way when you go into off-topicness until it gets out of hand. And when we ask you to stop because it's out of hand, and you continue to make nonsense posts, well, who's fault is that? We don't threaten to ban you, but what can we do? "Oh, they're not listening to us. We'll just go away now, they've shown us."

[Vendetta ●]

What classifies "out of hand"?!

It seems more like a personal decision!
If people are enjoying themselves, does that mean the entire wiki will get sucked into a black hole?
Does that mean every single topic on all the forums will be complete spam?
What harm does it cause if a few people on one thread are enjoying themselves?!

[Arch-Mage Matt ●]

What will it look like to the original maker of the thread who asked a question or tried to start a discussion, and when they check back no one is talking about the original topic? Or anyone else who was interested in the subject or question, or anyone who doesn't want to click trhough pages upon pages of nonsense to reach the answer they desire.

[Vendetta ●]

I understand when it is on an incorrect forum, but offtopic specific here

[Arch-Mage Matt ●]

This is not a chat room. What I go by is: If it wouldn't interest someone else, don't post it.

[OblivionDuruza ●]

I think people do occasionally have issues and I think that in most cases, talking can be a productive way to resolve them. I’m feeling better now that I’ve voiced my concerns, and while nothing really has changed, at least I can feel that people know that there is something wrong. I guess it’s okay for Blackfire to discuss his own issues here, there seems to be focus on not creating new threads unless it’s necessary around here. Personally I think new threads are easier to organise, but that’s just minor. Perhaps we need a more permanent and official place to voice general concerns? I don’t know, just a thought.

[Andere ●]

What classifies "out of hand"?! It seems more like a personal decision!

You did hit the nail on the head: being a moderator is not an exact science. I believe I have locked 4 or 5 topics, that have been reopened either by me, after members sent PM, or by other moderators - not very perfect, my action? And, I believe I have moved 3 or 4 topics - only to get them moved back... not very perfect, either?

If you can program moderators to act perfectly I can only say... NO! We're human, and we have a basic right to err. The best method in these cases is the mirror method: take a look in the mirror, and if what you see is perfect... go figure.

[OblivionDuruza ●]

That point about being human is spot on. We are all human here and I think we all deserve to be cut a little slack and to be given the benefit of the doubt. We should all, however, endeavour to do the best we humanly can, and I think that should be acknowledged. Blackfire, just be sensible and listen to the mods. I hope that if you go a little astray, they'll give you a point in the right direction, rather than a slap on the wrist. I think modding should be more on the laissez-faire side for the benefit of users and mods. We should all act in a way that makes the mods job easier. The point I'd like to highlight is that the mods should make it super-easy for us to act in such a manner, and I have seen steps to make this possible.

[HatofMadness ●]

whoo cares?

[MARS ●]

whoo cares?

Everyone who posted in this thread obviously.

[HatofMadness ●]

Last edited by HatofMadness on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[MARS ●]

Which is what most of us said

[Spiney ●]

Over-zealous mods? Nah, that's not the case here. They're just doing there best to ensure an active intelligent forum. If that gets a few people upset, then so be it.

It's hard to know how hard it can be for a moderator. It may seem like you're just telling them what's wrong with them, but to them it's a lot more. You get that feeling of helplessness. Unable to be or give help.

And any descision is hard to make. And many a times someone is going to object. I experienced this today, during my moderation of another forum. One user, was posting in some form of l33t speak and was also insulting members. Our forum policy states that we give them a 6 - 12 hour ban as a firm slap on the wrist. After that there was half an hour of calming the guy down on steam and other users saying it was unjust. It wasn't until another admin came on where he settled the matter. Its stressful, hard, and a little conflictive.

I say, give the mods a break. They are no doubt trying tondo the best they can. If you have a qualm, PM them politely and discuss the matter. And most importantly, keep your mind open for how they may feel.

[Jeff ●]

Underhanded...???

You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it does.

- - - - - - - - - -

If someone has an opinoin of me, that I do not like, I do not blame it on them. I step back and take a good long look at myself, and evaluate why someone would think that of me. People get their Opinions about me, by the way that I Act. Thus, if someones Opinion of me is Negative, then I have obviously acted in a Negative way, and I need to Fix that. Plain and Simple, because that is what Mature Intellegent Adults do.

- - - - - - - - - -

When I first meet someone, I treat them how I would expect them to treat me. I try to treat eveyone like a Mature Intellegent Adult. I do so, until they give me reasons to do otherwise.

After that... I treat people how they act. If you, (or anyone for that matter) do not like the way that I am treating you, then you only have to look at yourself, and question how are you acting.

When you decide to start acting like a Mature Intellegent Adult, then I will treat you like one.

[Dark Lord Cam ●]

Just to give everyone a single hint about what too far in spam means:


Anything that turns a thread into a game thread.

It may not be an actual game but imagine it like this:

First guy: *Picture of sheogorath* Check out my awesome mod!
Second guy *same picture* I will destroy you!
Third guy: Same pic* No, my turn!
Fourth guy *Same* No my turn!

and so on.

When you start doing stuff like that in General Discussion, it usually causes the mods to go in and delete all of it. I remember a couple of days ago when everyone was doing something similar to the example I used. They complained and thought I was ruining their discussion. I was not. I was preventing the thread from turning into a game thread. That is what spam in GD is for me. Anywhere else, it's anything that is offtopic.

So, as long as you are holding a decent discussion in GD and it doesn't devolve into a game like randomness, I'll leave ye alone. So will Avron and everyone else.

Every other place, stay on topic and there will be no problem.

As for PMs not getting responded to, this is a serious concern. Remember, you can always contact a mod via personal email, or MSN if the mod has an account. You can also message the other mods if you need to. I really don't like hearing about PMs getting ignored.

Oh right, before Pming a mod, check to make sure that person isn't out on a trip or something. We will all post in welcomes and goodbyes when we are leaving for a bit.

Sound good?

[OblivionDuruza ●]

Sounds very good Cam, and that example is helpful. I don't think I've ever been personally involved in a pure randomness discussion, and I'll endeavour to keep it that way.

I might try using personal emails in future, if I really have something to communicate. If mods are happy to make their emails available, then I see it as a great tool. During the event in question, the mod was online at the time, but I've let it go and I'm ready to start a fresh with everyone on the forums who I've disagreed with (there aren't many though).

@Jeff, underhanded means to me, deceptive or secretive, in this context: indirect. That's all. If you think I'm not acting maturely, then either your perception of me is wrong, your idea of maturity is whacked, you have unrealistic expectations of a forum that is open to many people of different age groups, or you simply need to tell me what you don't agree with me on.

All I am looking for is a bit of communication, as I have restated many times. It works both ways, I say what I am thinking and so do you. Tell me what's wrong and I'll work to make changes, I respect everyone enough to try.

[Iamgoofball ●]

By reading the previous posts, I'm started to get worried that this thread is turning into a flame war. People are starting to get annoyed.

[JockoBeans ●]

By reading the previous posts, I'm started to get worried that this thread is turning into a flame war. People are starting to get annoyed.

Unless someone PM'd you with a complaint tirade, I do not see any problem with this thread.

Everyone is just trying get their point across about some isssues that have been going around. It seems that things are being settled until someone else comes in with some issue they've found.

[OblivionDuruza ●]

There's no flame war here. We're just trying to talk things through so that things can get better. I'm feeling a lot better about the situation now that there has been some communication, and I'm glad to see that people have attempted to make things clear. I appreciate posts like Cam's and posts like that are helpful to everyone.

[Dean ●]

There are snakes in the grass...snakes in the trees.
Snakes are all around us...can't you see it with ease?

It would seem to few see what I see now,
Hopefully one day these fields will be safe enough to plough.

If you want to try and look through my enlightened eyes,
Go back to the start where the true feeling lies.

[Moeboid ●]

@Duruza:

I just wanted to say that you have my support. You raised two brilliant points in one of your posts so I would like to repeat them:

Nobody has told me why trying to do meaningful things is a bad thing, they’ve just said “don’t do too much, it’s bad”.

That's an excellent point. If you want to claim that something is bad, then you need to justify it. Also "because it's always been like that" is not a good reason to continue doing something. The rules/systems on this forum have never been and never will be perfect, but they can be improved. Any effort to do so should be encouraged.

this “just deal with it” mentality, all I want is some communication, so I can know how to “deal with it”. If people aren’t willing to be accepting, then why should I deal with them? I could just as equally say “deal with” my, and other new members’, “hyperactivity”

Yes, you could. Saying "just deal with it" is not good enough. Great point and I agree 100%.

@Jeff:

I like that you always start out treating people as a mature adult (if what you mean by that is treating them with respect), but I don't think there's ever a good reason to move away from that position. From my experience, continuing to treat someone with respect, even when they don't show you any, commands a lot of respect from people and says only good things about your character. I like to think about it in terms of control. If you, for example, treat me the with more or less respect depending on how I behave myself, then you're essentially giving me control of the way you act. That thought makes me very uncomfortable, so I treat everyone with as much respect as I can, and there's absolutely nothing they can do about it. The other thing that I have to say is that you have accused Duruza of not behaving like a mature adult. I strongly believe that you couldn't be further from the truth. From the way he's handling himself in this thread, I would even be ready to give him the responsibility of a moderator. He has shown that the cares greatly about these forums, values exactly the right things (open communication), and has elegantly expressed his very sensible views.