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Hello all, first post, be gentle.

I wanted to start a long series of conversations, and possibly arguments, over the lore behind the origins of the races of Nirn.
I'm doing a huge visual overhaul of skyrim/SSE character system (we're talking thousands of models, hundreds of textures)
and I want to get a good grasp of each race and try and portray them more accurately than vanilla skyrim.

Considering how long my overhaul will take to complete, I would aim to only discuss each race every 2 weeks, as its going to take 4-5 months.

Heres a list of races/subspecies/nationalities I'll (aiming to) be establishing:
*note: I will NOT be attempting beast folk Argonians and Khajiti, as I was happy with their appearance

Ancient/extinct Men:
Nedes. (1st migrations from Atmora pre civil war, almost pre-homo sapien in appearance)
Proto-Nords (different from Nedes? Ancient Atmoran nords, any way to relate to giants? Small deep seated eyes, huge nose, very tall)
Kothringi (based on Nedes but more aboriginal in appearance with dark purple skin and silvered sheen. White hair)
Akaviri Nedes (based on Japanese, extinct but some interbred with nords and imperials)

Current Races of Men
Bretons (thin, fragile features mixed with some "french" features. Subtle elvish influence)
Reachmen (unique race? More feral, intermixed with nords, hairier and heavier than bretons)
Nords (Viking inspiration. Tall, heavy, blonde. Some nords have obvious (Akaviri) asian heritage)
Skall (unique race? Unsure of direction. EIther heavier eskimo look, or more "pure" atmoran)
Colovian (northern european appearance, basically british, so ugly like me)
Nibenese (Spanish, Italian, darker skin, brown eyes)
Redguard Forebear (Arabian. Mixed with first nedes, then imperials).
Redguard Crowns (Purebreed Yokudan, Nubian Africans)

Ancient/Extinct Mer:
Dwemer (Large eyes, small features, thin body, asian appearance, flat face (Assyrian influence))
Snow Elf (Pre-fall. beautiful, alabaster elves. Some facial inspiration from Mongolians)
Wild Elves/Ayelid (Unique facial shape, very pointed, thick bridges, use of feathers in hair)
Aldmer (something quite alien and bizarre for the original race)

Current Races of Mer
Orsimer (Same as Skyrim but will rely more on AdamAdamW (RIP) concepts)
Bosmer (Same as skyrim, flat noses, thicker lips, but hair styles more wild and include twigs and flora)
Native Bosmer (See above except Sharpened pointed teeth, wild hair adorned with bones (green pact))
Maomer (semi transparent skin, scaley skin, silver eyes)
Altmer (Tone down the yellow jaundice, make universally beautiful)
Dunmer (Harsher tougher faces, otherwise the same idea)
Ashlander (Original chimer appearance mixed with very harsh features from the elements)


Other races to be mentioned later
Sload (technically near impossible)
tsaesci (snake human in main form, increases snake form much like werewolf transformation)
Tang Mo ( will be possible)
Riekling (no idea of the source)
Imga (technically difficult)


Some general notes on Men/mer differences.
Men have whites of eyes, elves do not. Elves also have much larger iris/pupils.
Men have oily glossy skin, Elves has a more metallic scattering sheen.
Elves heads are sloped at the front, and longer at the back.
Elves, apart from Orsimer, are ALWAYS thinner than races of men.

If theres any interest in this I'd like to start a quick convo on the origins of men, with nedes and nords.
Until then i'll leave u with the image I started with.
er, nevermind, not allowed to post images

Hi Ravanna

Before I say anything more, I must first address this tho >_> Now upon the 2nd matter to address, racial origins. Anyways by no means am I an expert at the lore, hell I may have messed up one or two details.. So dont take what I say as pure truth

Lastly you seem to have forgotten some of the Akavir races and beastfolk.

Now I'm not going to bother so much with the niche details in appearances or their real world inspirations. Tho I can make note of the Aldmer, who were from what we can assume by the Altmer, the pinnacle of elven perfection. Personally, I would look at the similarities between the Altmer, Alyieds, Chimer, and even the ancient Falmer

Hopefully this helps(and I didn't seem too mean with the nip picks )

Just a quick thought; you can't really "portray them more accurately than vanilla skyrim." You can produce your own take on how each race should look, but you don't actually possess the authority to make that claim.

Additionally, that "yellow jaundice" you use to describe the Altmer is their natural skin tone. Furthermore, your goal to make them and the snow elves "universally beautiful" is far from accurate, though that is assuming your definition of "beautiful" is relative to ideal human features.

Elves in Skyrim are not your Tolkien-esque, stereotypical supermodels.


So while you're free to try to 'beautify' them, you need to acknowledge that just because you've made them more appealing doesn't mean that it's the way they should be. You can discuss and collaborate on each race as much as you want, but until you're working at Bethesda, you can't make those claims.

I'd say look to the Gaels for inspiration on the Reachmen, since that's what their naming conventions draw from.

Will try and address these point by point.

BetaB:
When I say "race" I mean specifically in a way that the skyrim engine understands them. Each "race" comes with its own set of beards, eye/nose/mouth types.
If I want more variance in a certain group, i split them into another "race", the idea being more interesting faces in different locations.

I still want to have the option of extinct races. The player (recording a lets play, or just for fun) can role play any story or scenario as to why this previously thought extinct race has appeared in the modern day.
This is also why I want to pursue the "migration" of the races. (ie, why snow elves would look similar to dwemer, but quite distinct from dunmer, IF certain migraine routes were followed.)

As I said, Beast races I wont be looking at, except for some rare ones. Arg/Khaj are visually acceptable in standard skyrim.

TingzOr:
You're correct, what I meant to say was portray them somewhat faithfully to bethesda's IP if they had been allowed the same mesh detail and file sizes for characters and textures, although at the same time the evil temptation of kermit says "bethesda is too cartoony, push the realism"

The yellow skin of Aldmer I wanted to avoid as thats one of the biggest complaints I hear about them whenever the discussion of the races is brought up.
As for "Beautiful", that alien sharp look IS what i meant by beauty, you cant deny. The sort of alien beauty described in the World of Darkness "Tzimisce" metamorphosis. I'm not going down the same route as the other character improvement mods, where everyone is a super model. quite the opposite, I'll be trying to add broken teeth and ugly peasants.

I'll look up Gaels for Reachman, thanks Legoless.

I'm working on facial hair atm, focusing on 6 culturally themed beards each then mixing them.
Will post pictures when my account allows it.
Will test with this:



So to begin, I've been using Neanderthal facial reconstructions, Otzi the Iceman and others as sculpt details for the Nedes.
Would there be lore objection to this? I really wanted to make them feel more primitive.

There's no lore justification for making Nedes look primitive. Lamae Bal appears in ESO and she's indistinguishable from a Breton or Imperial.

I apologise for this arrogant decision: I try to refrain from referring to ESO whenever possible, especially the "artwork" My friends who consider themselves lore-"nerds" complain no end about that game as well.

Are these too primitive? bare in mind that most of the sloping brows and shapes u see in early-hominids wont be present in final form:

Good call.

Ah. Okay. I see. My mistake. I assumed you were coming on here to ask people who knew what they were talking about to give constructive criticisms of your ideas. If I'd known you already had your mind made up and you were just looking for people to [&@%!] your fan fiction, I'd have saved my expertise for someone who can be reached.

Okay, let's pump the brakes for a second and stay to topic.

It's going to be a hard sale on making Nedes too primitive or even too physically distinct as we're not talking about as long of a time for the traits to be bred out (or that natural evolution even exists in TES). If anything, due to their basis on Atmorans, which are said to have to varied themselves (See: Songs of the Return, vol 24), they're more likely to be a bit of a blank slate catch-all of "mutt" features; lacking the finer/angular features associated with elves, but perhaps not quite as bulky as those that stayed in Skyrim. Or they were distinct, but the term was used as a catch all for humans prior to written human records (aka Ysgramor the "first human historian")

When it comes to early humans, taking inspiration from the Giants that wander Skyrim would not be a bad idea. It has been described a few times in game that the Atmorans and the Giants were once closely related if not the same people. That may just be folklore but I suspect there is a grain of truth in the claim. So less bulbous and more carved out of stone. But that's just what I'm choosing to take away as there has been little evidence to suggest that they differed in appearance at all to the common nords.

The elves are a whole different can of worms. The elves have had their appearances retconnedd a few times, call it what you like but in my eyes ESO's interpretation is just as valid as Skyrim's. These bulging brows are a recent addition to their lineage and was likely done to disassociate them with humans. With the exception of the dunner of course who owe their features to isolation and the small matter of being cursed for centuries. While I agree that they are frighteningly goblinoid in appearance in Skyrim I suspect this is merely an artistic choice rather than something we should take at face value. Hehe, face value.

*Lore notes on Ethnicities of Tamriel

If you are the sort who likes deep lore, I have gone out of my way to dig up the deep dirt on Tamriel's human population and it's actually a lot more diverse than you think. Although at time I have had to use some critical thinking to make sense of plot holes or gaps in information what follows contains no head canon, and all of these groups have been mentioned in canonized sources and therefore can be assumed to exist in game. Remember that this is just how things look on my side of the Dragon Breach. If you do not like how I have described these groups please leave constructive input as well as criticism.

Akaviri: The Asians of Nirn. According to developer "Slateman" (Alan Nanes) they survived the Tsaesci holocaust thanks to the intervention of Tosh Raka. If the more lore friendly items in the Creation Club are taken as canon, Akaviri humans are not entirely unknown in Tamriel by the fourth era and an be created without the excuse of a Dragon Breach in Skyrim.

Kreath: One of the proto Imperial groups, the Men-of-Kreath are somewhat Germanic, being a mix of both Nordic and Imperial stock. Considering that in lore Falkreath is full of graveyards and is actually larger than current Germany in terms of landmass we can guess that this the home of the Kreath.

Nords: Baltic/Viking kingdoms. The Nords can easily be identified as Tamrielic translations of real world Nordic peoples. Whiterun resembles Sweden in terms of politics, while Windhelm is ruled by a guy who may as well be Varg Vikernes, so Norway. Riften is full of trolls, so there you have Finland.

Barbarians: Wild Nords. Not all Nords live in places like Whiterun. Some are every bit as savage as Reachmen. Those dudes who live in caves you encounter all over Skyrim are often comprised of such individuals, many of whom probably retain their frost resistance if you are doing tabletop.

Breton: Daggerfall (England), Camlorn (Wales), Glenumbra (France), Rivenspire (Scotland) Stormhaven (Ireland.) Some here still practice an ancient form of magic known as Galenic Druidism. Languages spoke in High Rock include Cryodilic Standard, Glenumbrian, and various Galenic tribal dialects. The people here revere the Elven Pantheon rather than the 8 Divines, and prayers and sermons are often delivered in the Elven tongue by the clergy. In High Rock there is no division between Man and Mer, which is a shock to foreigners in the 4th era.

Rihadi: The Men-of-Rihad are a Pre Imperial group native to Hammerfell. They resemble Arabs and were absorbed into the Redguard. Just assume Redguard who look more Arab than Black are these dudes.

Yokudans: Yokudan culture is the dominent cultural force in Hammerfell as well as what is left of Yokuda. This group eradicated the Keptu and subjugated the Rihadi in ages past.

Wrothgarians: Also called the Forsworn or Reachmen. Their shamans are called Druadach, and practice a twisted form of Galenic Druidism. Reachmen of Wrothgar and Skyrim resemble Slavs, while the Reachmen who dwell in High Rock resemble Picts.

Nibenians: Natives of the Nibenay Basin and more generally Eastern Tamriel. Before Talos altered history they were much like their Akaviri ancestors in terms of culture and appearance, but when the 9th Divine altered the history of the land he also altered the history of the people of that land. The Nibenese of Talos's new timeline had all but forgotten their heritage. They were left as little more than savages, their history and culture wiped out in an instant. Some Nibenians migrated to the cities, particularly Bravil and Lleyawiin, and bred with the Colovians, while others remained as they had found themselves, becoming the nomads that inhabit the Basin. They somewhat resemble Native Americans, making use of warpaint and other more tribal elements of pre-Imperial culture.

Colovians: A Pre Imperial human group with a distinct dialect and architectural style. They resemble Greeks and Romans, even moreso than most Imperials. In fact, Colovians consider themselves the only true Imperials in all of Cyrodiil, and often consider the current multicultural state of things in the Empire to be an embarrassment.

Cyrodilics: The modern Imperial Citizen is a mix of various ethnic backgrounds and is oft considered a mutt race by the Colovians and Nibenians. For their part, Cyrodilics consider the Colovians to be snobbish and the Nibenians to be primitive. These guys comprise the majority of Western Cyrodiil.

Velothi Nomads: Nibenians of Morrowind near Blacklight. They resemble Eskimos. They are just tribal Nibenians with Skaal clothing. These people are disregarded by the Empire and hunted by the Nobles of Blacklight for sport. They worship Kynareth and are led by Ice Shamans.

Rimmenian: These guys call themselves Akaviri but more resemble Persians than Asians. In any case, while the people of Rimmen Kingdom may think of themselves as Tsaesci, the rest of the humans in Elsweyr just consider themselves citizens of their nation. The typical Elsweyrian human is a descendant of Rihadi refugees from the Yokudan invasion and is not related to the descendants of Akavir. Despite this, all human Natives of Elsweyr are called Rimmen because the term is a pejorative meaning "From the rim of the Empire." These guys resemble the peoples of India.

Gypsies: Also known as Rema, the Gypsies of Tamriel are featured in Redguard and other really old lore, particularly in regards to item descriptions.

Zenithites: A hereditary order of Priests dedicated to a religion that is entirely focused on money. Technically a bloodline rather than a race. Surely there is no group like this in the REAL world...