Question about Racial Height Ranges

BlackWormDisciple · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:22 am

Hello everyone.

I figured I'd ask about this - although I believe this has been discussed before, but it might help to get more recent perspectives on this. We know all the races of Tamriel have various differences among them and how a number of their traits are quite obvious to tell about them such as the golden complexions of the Altmer, various sub-species of Khajiit that exist, and the faint traces of Elven lineage in the form higher cheekbones and Mer-like brows regarding the Bretons/Manmer. One thing, however, that some people seem to have uncertainty with is the lore-wise height ranges of each race. I've seen a chart that seems to be agreed upon by many, and there are other charts as well some have made - but I find myself curious about the heights of a few certain races, specifically regarding the races of Man rather than Mer.

Is there an agreed upon height-range for the Nords, Bretons, Imperials, and Redguards each?

What exactly would the average height for a Nord male be, as well as the shortest height? What about females Nords - would they be the same height as a male Nord? Also, would there be some sort of stigma for Nords shorter than the average height?

I know that Breton females are shorter than Breton males, but what exactly would their height range be - their averages as well? Many seem to agree on the notion that Imperials and Bretons are both of an average of 5'9" (either the exact same or an inch shorter than the real-world average height if I remember correctly), with Breton females being... I think, 5'6". Is that correct though?

Imbalance · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:03 am

Nords are tallest of the races of men, not quite Altmer height. Beyond that I think the rest fall in an average human range.

Br3admax · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:12 am

Imperial and Breton are a cultural thing, not necessarily races, although that's basically what races are, but it's even less important here. The rest is just gameplay. There's no reason Nords, Bretons, or Imperials would be separated by height because they all share the same blood, and for the most part history and origin. They also all commonly interbreed. They're all just standard humans, with slightly less than standard cultural separations. The ranges of height will basically be the same.

legoless · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:54 pm

Br3admax wrote:

Imperial and Breton are a cultural thing, not necessarily races, although that's basically what races are, but it's even less important here. The rest is just gameplay. There's no reason Nords, Bretons, or Imperials would be separated by height because they all share the same blood, and for the most part history and origin. They also all commonly interbreed. They're all just standard humans, with slightly less than standard cultural separations. The ranges of height will basically be the same.

Nords are definitely much taller, and Bretons have elfblood. It's not just a cultural thing.

Br3admax · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:03 pm

They aren't even much taller in game. The difference between a Colovian and a Nord is marginal if even existent. Imperial isn't even a race and really just speaks about the people who lived in the Heartland under Reman's rule. Currently it describes anyone of Nordic and Nedic decent in the Empire. Same with them and the Bretons who live near the border. Similarly, while Bretons have some elf blood, they are by and large mostly human, and even if they weren't all these races still interbred, very regularly. Breton is a cultural designation more than anything, unless you want to argue that any random mating of a male elf with a human woman would produce a Breton, which is far from the case. It's not like the amount of elf in each Breton is uniform and that it is constant across social classes, which is why you'll see some Bretons with more elven traits than others. These are all cultural distinctions in the vast majority of cases, and you'd have zero success picking a Nord, from a Breton, from a Colovian, and probably from a Nibenean if you actually saw them outside of a gameplay context because people do not actually work that way.

legoless · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:41 pm

Br3admax wrote:

They aren't even much taller in game.

Have you played ESO? Nords are giants. Colovians aren't.

Tingz0r · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:00 pm

Br3admax wrote:

Imperial and Breton are a cultural thing, not necessarily races ... They're all just standard humans, with slightly less than standard cultural separations. The ranges of height will basically be the same.

You seem to be forgetting how races work. There are clear differences between the races of man in TES just as there are clear differences between races in the real world. Bretons are human, but they are a separate race of human. There absolutely are definable differences across each distinctive race.

BlackWormDisciple wrote:

Is there an agreed upon height-range for the Nords, Bretons, Imperials, and Redguards each?

Not really. Some people may speculate on this, but really all there is to go off of is each game's own defined heights for males and females of each race. Of course it stems from the limitations put in place by the game itself, but because of this it stands to reason that almost everyone in the game world grows to nearly the exact same height as everyone else of their race and gender. Might sound a bit boring, but that's how it is. The only game that does it any differently is TESO, but since that's not a traditional Elder Scrolls game (and, in my opinion, not canonical), I'm not going to discuss it, even though it might be your best bet to forming your own theory about possible height ranges. A future Elder Scrolls release may introduce variable height, but that won't change how things worked in previous games. Hopefully M'aiq will provide some insight at that time. :wink:

As for real world equivalence, I haven't really looked into it. I'm sure someone has done proper comparisons and did the math, but I wouldn't be able to tell you about it. However, just judging by eyes alone, I'd say that height 1.0 in Skyrim probably equates to 6 feet (~183cm) , and each 0.01 value equals 1%, meaning that Nords would be about 6'2" (~188cm), Altmer would be 6'6" (~198cm), and female Bretons/Khajiit would be 5'8" (~174cm), if I'm doing my math correctly.

MetaCthulhu · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:04 pm

legoless wrote:

Br3admax wrote:

They aren't even much taller in game.

Have you played ESO? Nords are giants. Colovians aren't.

It's also backed up by Skyrim game data: Nords are the 3rd tallest race in the game, and tallest among the man races.

legoless · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:04 pm

Really? Never noticed it in Skyrim, that's cool.

Imbalance · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:49 pm

They're certainty taller in Morrowind, too. Try navigating some of those mushroom house tunnels without bonking your big, blonde head.

Br3admax · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:08 pm

Tingz0r wrote:

Br3admax wrote:

Imperial and Breton are a cultural thing, not necessarily races ... They're all just standard humans, with slightly less than standard cultural separations. The ranges of height will basically be the same.

You seem to be forgetting how races work. There are clear differences between the races of man in TES just as there are clear differences between races in the real world. Bretons are human, but they are a separate race of human. There absolutely are definable differences across each distinctive race.

Races aren't a clear distinction in the real world. It's a social construct, even more so than in Tamriel where having a certain race gives you superpowers. There are things that commonly put you into certain categories, but genetic variation is greater within races than it is from race to race. I've read the UESP article on Bretons before, just as I've read Racial Phenology. Appearance wise, race isn't really a thing. It most certainly isn't genetically in our world.

MetaCthulhu wrote:

legoless wrote:

Br3admax wrote:

They aren't even much taller in game.

Have you played ESO? Nords are giants. Colovians aren't.

It's also backed up by Skyrim game data: Nords are the 3rd tallest race in the game, and tallest among the man races.

The difference in height from Nords and Imperials in Skyrim is about three inches. Hardly what I'd call much taller. Doesn't really matter though, as that goes into gameplay more than lore. There is no uniform height or range between races.

Pilaf The Defiler · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:20 pm

The percentage of Aldmeri ancestry varies from Breton clan to Breton clan, and not everyone on Tamriel who has Elven lineage is a Breton. Reachmen for instance would chafe at being called Bretons. Imperials are even more mixed, since political marriages have always been a huge thing, and since Cyrodiil shares a border with every single other Province. Uriel and Martin Septim, for instance, were probably more Breton than anything else, but are represented as Imperials in the game.

Tingz0r · **Posted:** Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:48 pm

Br3admax wrote:

Races aren't a clear distinction in the real world. It's a social construct, even more so than in Tamriel where having a certain race gives you superpowers. There are things that commonly put you into certain categories, but genetic variation is greater within races than it is from race to race. I've read the UESP article on Bretons before, just as I've read Racial Phenology. Appearance wise, race isn't really a thing. It most certainly isn't genetically in our world.

I think I get what you're trying to say. How about this; Bretons are a different ethnicity than Nords. Does that sound more politically correct, to you?

Still, the fact is that Bretons, Cyrodiils, Nords, and Redguards are all genetically different. They are all humans, but they differ quite clearly, and not just through social constructs.

Br3admax · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:41 am

Tingz0r wrote:

Br3admax wrote:

Races aren't a clear distinction in the real world. It's a social construct, even more so than in Tamriel where having a certain race gives you superpowers. There are things that commonly put you into certain categories, but genetic variation is greater within races than it is from race to race. I've read the UESP article on Bretons before, just as I've read Racial Phenology. Appearance wise, race isn't really a thing. It most certainly isn't genetically in our world.

I think I get what you're trying to say. How about this; Bretons are a different ethnicity than Nords. Does that sound more politically correct, to you?

Still, the fact is that Bretons, Cyrodiils, Nords, and Redguards are all genetically different. They are all humans, but they differ quite clearly, and not just through social constructs.

It has nothing to do with political correctness, but sure. Breton is an ethnicity. Just like American is an ethnicity.

For starters, I've yet to see anything prove that genes even exist in Tamriel given that mother determines race no matter what that mother might be, whereas in the real world, that's clearly not the case. What's the major differences between Imperials, Bretons, and Nords?

"Bretons are a tall, dark-haired people."
sounds a lot like
"Nords are a tall and fair-skinned people "

Not to mention Cyrodiilics not even being a race, and even if it were, they are described as "Cyro-Nords" before Reman united them all under the term Imperial. Nothing in lore supports any type of strong distinctions. The only ones that are singled out are Redguards, and they do not share the same bloodline as the other human races in Tamriel, and if ESO is anything to go off of, they didn't even originate in this cycle/kalpa.

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:

The percentage of Aldmeri ancestry varies from Breton clan to Breton clan, and not everyone on Tamriel who has Elven lineage is a Breton. Reachmen for instance would chafe at being called Bretons. Imperials are even more mixed, since political marriages have always been a huge thing, and since Cyrodiil shares a border with every single other Province. Uriel and Martin Septim, for instance, were probably more Breton than anything else, but are represented as Imperials in the game.

Bingo.

Pilaf The Defiler · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:13 am

Tingz0r wrote:

Br3admax wrote:

Races aren't a clear distinction in the real world. It's a social construct, even more so than in Tamriel where having a certain race gives you superpowers. There are things that commonly put you into certain categories, but genetic variation is greater within races than it is from race to race. I've read the UESP article on Bretons before, just as I've read Racial Phenology. Appearance wise, race isn't really a thing. It most certainly isn't genetically in our world.

I think I get what you're trying to say. How about this; Bretons are a different ethnicity than Nords. Does that sound more politically correct, to you?

Still, the fact is that Bretons, Cyrodiils, Nords, and Redguards are all genetically different. They are all humans, but they differ quite clearly, and not just through social constructs.

We're not trying to be "politically correct". We realize that things like skin tone and genetic variations exist. What we're claiming is that while "Redguard" or "Altmer" are titles that are mainly about the skin a person wears, "Breton" and "Imperial" are socio-political labels that apply to people who live under certain laws and religions, who are often white Humans but not always. It's like the difference between "Hispanic" and "American." A Hispanic can be assumed to have a certain set of physical characteristics. An American cannot.

Dark Spark · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:48 am

When the proto-Cyrods were a slave population under the Alyeids you may have to factor in a little inbreeding. A slave population is likely to have a limited gene pool as their masters kept their communities confined and insulated from one another as well as from freeborn. This may have an influence in setting the Cyrodiilic apart from the Nords.

Tingz0r · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:57 am

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:

We're not trying to be "politically correct". We realize that things like skin tone and genetic variations exist. What we're claiming is that while "Redguard" or "Altmer" are titles that are mainly about the skin a person wears, "Breton" and "Imperial" are socio-political labels that apply to people who live under certain laws and religions, who are often white Humans but not always. It's like the difference between "Hispanic" and "American." A Hispanic can be assumed to have a certain set of physical characteristics. An American cannot.

The problem with your angle is the game itself calls that being a different "race." No amount of fancy words will change what the game world defines a race to be.

Bretons are Bretons. They may have come from Nords and elves, but now they're Bretons. Cyrodiils are Cyrodiils. They weren't always their own race, but now they are, and there are clear differences between them and the Nords.

We've gotten grossly sidetracked from talking about height.

legoless · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:19 pm

Tingz0r wrote:

The problem with your angle is the game itself calls that being a different "race." No amount of fancy words will change what the game world defines a race to be.

Bretons are Bretons. They may have come from Nords and elves, but now they're Bretons. Cyrodiils are Cyrodiils. They weren't always their own race, but now they are, and there are clear differences between them and the Nords.

I would agree with this too. After all, if we're only gonna consider height and physical characteristics, what's a Wood Elf but a short Aldmer? There are metaphysical foces at work here. Obviously the relationship between the races of man are more nuanced than, say, that between an Argonian and a Dunmer, but they're definitely distinct races in TES regardless of any fuzzy real world definition.

Bretons are under Adamantine (and Doomcrag I guess). Imperials are under White-Gold and reshaped their land with it. Nords, Snow-Throat. Geographical location shapes a race as much as a race shapes its surrounding geography. Belief has power, and if you believe Heartland men are not two separate strains of Ayleidic-Nedic-Nordic-Tsaesci-bulls but a united Imperial people, maybe over time that becomes a reality in more ways than just cultural.

Why are Nords tall? Maybe ancient kinship with their giant Atmoran cousins, or maybe cultural preference for big beefy Conans. But I think it's very clear than a Colovian is no longer a Nord.

Br3admax · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:15 am

Tingz0r wrote:

Pilaf The Defiler wrote:

We're not trying to be "politically correct". We realize that things like skin tone and genetic variations exist. What we're claiming is that while "Redguard" or "Altmer" are titles that are mainly about the skin a person wears, "Breton" and "Imperial" are socio-political labels that apply to people who live under certain laws and religions, who are often white Humans but not always. It's like the difference between "Hispanic" and "American." A Hispanic can be assumed to have a certain set of physical characteristics. An American cannot.

The problem with your angle is the game itself calls that being a different "race." No amount of fancy words will change what the game world defines a race to be.

You still haven't provided evidence to support this.

Quote:

Bretons are Bretons. They may have come from Nords and elves, but now they're Bretons. Cyrodiils are Cyrodiils. They weren't always their own race, but now they are, and there are clear differences between them and the Nords.

Citation needed. Not only this, but Bretons didn't come from Nords and elves.

Quote:

We've gotten grossly sidetracked from talking about height.

This is true, but that's just part of our overall point.

legoless wrote:

I would agree with this too. After all, if we're only gonna consider height and physical characteristics, what's a Wood Elf but a short Aldmer? There are metaphysical foces at work here. Obviously the relationship between the races of man are more nuanced than, say, that between an Argonian and a Dunmer, but they're definitely distinct races in TES regardless of any fuzzy real world definition.

Well considering that elves are actually being operated on by these metaphysics, as opposed to Nords, Bretons, and Imperials where this is a grand total of absolutely zero cases of Daedric or otherwise influence on human nature.

Quote:

Bretons are under Adamantine (and Doomcrag I guess). Imperials are under White-Gold and reshaped their land with it. Nords, Snow-Throat. Geographical location shapes a race as much as a race shapes its surrounding geography. Belief has power, and if you believe Heartland men are not two separate strains of Ayleidic-Nedic-Nordic-Tsaesci-bulls but a united Imperial people, maybe over time that becomes a reality in more ways than just cultural.

You'd still have to give a citation for any of this. Nothing suggests any of these Towers, which don't do what you imply that they do, have any effect on the people who live near them, nor have they changed anyone who lives near them today, even when they were active.

Quote:

Why are Nords tall? Maybe ancient kinship with their giant Atmoran cousins, or maybe cultural preference for big beefy Conans. But I think it's very clear than a Colovian is no longer a Nord.

Colovian have:

A) Nord culture
B) Nordic stipulations for strength and marshalship
C) Gods

So unless you have something actually provided to show how a Colovian isn't all but a Nord, and not only that but how a Colovian is different from a Nibenean or a Breton, you don't really have a leg to stand on.

Tingz0r · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:11 am

Br3admax wrote:

Tingz0r wrote:

The problem with your angle is the game itself calls that being a different "race." No amount of fancy words will change what the game world defines a race to be.

You still haven't provided evidence to support this.

Sorry about being so in your face about it, but you're making an extraordinary fuss over something that I never thought I would ever have to discuss so extensively. It's like I'm trying to convince you that a chicken is just a chicken and not the product of an experiment gone awry after someone tried bringing pterodactyls back from extinction using what they thought was petrified semen but turned out to be a broken piece of a sand dollar in the shape of a tadpole.

:dur:

Again, sorry for being in your face.

MetaCthulhu · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:16 am

Lore source too:

How Orsinium Passed to the Orcs wrote:

He has ample documentation to make a claim on the land,” the magistrate shrugged. “And the particular laws of our land do not discriminate between particular races. We had a Bosmer regency once, many generations ago.”

Quote:

Citation needed. Not only this, but Bretons didn't come from Nords and elves.

Pocket Guide to the Empire wrote:

...the Nords reasoned that the "Manmeri" beyond the Reach were, in fact, descended from human slaves taken during the Elven destruction of Saarthal "

Br3admax · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:26 am

You're first source didn't prove anything besides the fact that people use the term races, which is true. That's not a genetic distinction, especially when we don't even know if genetics exist.

The second source doesn't even give what I asked for. I asked for how Bretons are genetically distinct from anyone, as in a source to prove that, not a gameplay screen to select a culture in game. Even if it was, no one is sure of the source of humans native to Tamriel.

Tingz0r · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:30 am

Br3admax · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:06 am

As much as I hate talking in circles, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and keep waiting for either of you three to produce in lore evidence of genetic distinctions between all three of these groups. Till then, however, I'll go with the actual lore we are given and assume there really aren't much, if any.

MetaCthulhu · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:30 am

Long Version:

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Question about Racial Height Ranges
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