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Yet, all the lore on it shows that the Thu'um was mostly used for combat-related reasons, until Jurgen Windcaller created the way of the voice and turned the voice from it's intended purpose.

100% of martial arts are originally meant for combat purposes.
99,9% of them teach the same principles as the Greybeards with the Thu'um.

Delphine seems like she's power-hungry leftover from a once great organization. After the fall of the Blades her life had little to no meaning, so she held on to what she knew: Blades vs Thalmor.
She could never let that go and she'll use whatever means she can to re-assert her identity as a Blades member. And seeing as she's pretty much the only one left, she can have a great deal of power by molding the Dragonborn into her enforcer.

So Greybeards for me.

The purpose of the greybeards was not to teach responsible use of the Thu'um, it was to teach one group to use it when THEY need it, and only if THEY feel threatened. anyone else besides the Dragonborn using it for any other reason is evil/bad in their eyes.

Is it not?
Anybody going to the Greybeards for study learns this, much as any other martial arts: Use it wisely and only when in true need (vague, I agree).

Does that mean that all students live by that principle? No
Ulfric is the most recent and known example of that.

I am only saying that the way of the pacifist ways of the greybeards is not the intended purpose of the thu'um.

I am not insulting the "way of the voice", just the greybeards' interpretation of it. There is more to "true need" than world shattering crises.

Jurgen Windcaller developed the way of the voice when his thu'um didn't ensure victory against the dunmer (and dwemer? i think, can't remember). So pwned were the Nords, that the only therapy for his guilt and wounded pride was to rationalise that he had misused the thu'um and so the way forward was in meditation down a more 'zen' path.

had he been victorious, i am sure the "way of the voice" (had it existed) would have been more in line with the original dragon purpose:

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!!"
(quoted from Arnie, original Conan the Barbarian movie and not from TES, but you get the idea)

so really the greybeards have maintained a sanctuary and place of repentance for those who have seen evil and defeat in their lives, and this definitely includes Paarthunaax.. they are as much a place where war criminals and lost heroes can go to heal themselves as a sort of Skyrim version of Yoda,

and i think this should not be lost on our characters

Ulfric has used the thu'um in its original way but perhaps if his story continued after the events of skyrim, he would also eventually retire to the mountain

I'd argue that the first axe was most likely created for the purpose of chopping down trees, until some Cro-Magnon with a bad attitude used it on his neighbor's neck. The developers of asbestos weren't setting out to keep thousands of lawyers working for decades, but here we are. Again, how something was intended to be put to use bears no causal link to how it is ultimately put to use. Further, this situation is unique one which bears little relation to any real-world conceptions.





That is all that's really known on the origins of the thu'um. While dragons are clearly violent creatures, that's to be expected in immortal creatures, is it not? If everyone was immortal, you could bet I would express myself a whole lot more with my fists. Point being, the conclusion that the thu'um was meant for combat is derived from an inapplicable paradigm. Speech and combat are inextricably linked when it comes to the thu'um, so ignoring one and treating the other as the "intentional" purpose is unfounded conjecture. It's inherently inaccurate.

I'm just uncomfortable with the whole idea of speaking in terms of purpose and intent when it comes to the thu'um. It strikes me as akin to talking about the purpose and intent of gravity. It's a force of nature, and while the gods of TES are slightly less enigmatic than any real-world concepts of a deity, trying to discern their intentions on something like this is no less futile.

Actually, the tablets of High Hrothgar give the impression that, in creating the Way of the Voice, Jurgen was actually rediscovering the original use of the thu'um.

By the way, when Jurgen went to the Throat of the World, who do you think he found there?

I've long suspected that it was Paarthurnax who taught Jurgen, not vice versa.

"Jurgen would use the defeat as inspiration to discover the Way of the Voice and found the Greybeards." - this probably reports the nord version of events. I cant remember the in game discussion we have with P but will definitely pay more attention to any info he might have on Jurgen and those first years on the mountain

i agree Jurgen found his way to the throat and discovered Paarthunaax. But i think it's just as likely J arrived w his followers at the throat of the world with the idea of The Way and found P who suddenly had an opportunity to do good work by tutoring the group - it must have been a great day for all concerned, once they realised how they could help each other

i imagine Paarthunax was a reclusive, exiled monster until the Jurgen and company arrived on the scene


the story that Kynareth gave humans the ability to thu'um as defence against the dragons is significant in the origin of The Way imo - the dragon language was used by Alduin to dominate (mortals and other dovah), but the thu'um used by dovahkiin and other dragonborn was a gift from kyne to be used to defend against Alduin and perhaps different in nature somehow, given in trust or for a purpose

so when Jurgen used it against other mortals he somehow betrayed Kynes purpose and so Jurgen reasoned that the thu'um should be a way of peace and enlightenment save in times of "true need" - all speculation but reasonable when you see how Jurgan came to believe in the Way

the "true need" idea is Ulfric's justification for his attack on Torygg, at best arguable whether his idea of "true need" would be upheld by others

I feel storytelling really dropped the ball with Delphine's character. They were clearly going for stern and no-nonsense and did it in all the wrong ways.

I usually go with Greybeards but since the decision hardly has any effect and since most of my characters don't end up being Dragonborn anyway, I usually don't give this decision much thought because of how little it matters, even moreso now that I know about the Paarthurnax Dilemma mod.

But, "True Need" is a subjective term, so the Greybeards are, essentially wrong in sitting on a mountain all day doing nothing if the Thu'um was meant to be used, not studied.

It's poorly defined in-game, but "true" need would seem to indicate it is anything but subjective. Only objective, factual things are true or false. Hence, the Way of the Voice allows a god-anointed savior of the world to use the thu'um however he or she sees fit, because it is an absolute endorsement for action from that person. The Greybeards do believe in using the thu'um, just not in exploiting it for anything less than an intervention which is ecumenically required for survival.

yes i agree, the Greybeards probably should take more interest in what happens after they teach people the thu'um and send them out into the world.. they must take some responsibility, especially seeing as their ancestor is Jurgen who it could be said fell foul of his misuse of the voice (something Ulfric has arguably done). I felt in the game that they armed me with the thu'um and then said "off you go, dont do anything silly" and that was it.

Went with the Greybeards for roleplay reasons.

My young female Dragonborn has a thing for wise old men. And apparently, wise old dragons, too: Paarthurnax's line "What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" strongly resonated with the character, since she struggles to overcome her own demons, and has a drunk husband that makes no effort to change. Also, I think that the visits to High Hrothgar have had a calming effect on the character and have kept her from falling into the addictions that plagued her for much of the game (almost 2 in-game years before it was revealed she was the Dragonborn, with much of that time being addicted to one thing or another, especially when stressed). That was a big surprise to me as a player.

She is disappointed and frustrated with Esbern and Delphine for insisting on her dear Paarthy's death, because both of them could have wisdom to offer in other ways - yet, now they refuse to talk to her. Ultimately, it's their loss, too, as it means that she won't be recruiting anybody to join their ranks.

I have no opinion on gameplay advantages or lore-related reasons to choose one or the other, because that stuff doesn't factor into the decisions I make in the game.

I agree they cut off there own foot dispise there face, when they order you take action against your own ideas. My opinion is they become very facist mentalitied once you give them there fort and they feel now that their important when two days ago they ran a tavern and lived in a rat hole. I would kill them both just for having the audacity to order me around after this happens but the game wont allow it. Create a new blades worth having similar to rebuilding the dawnguard to a grand purpose for humanties protection from vampires.

Well, Tero Indarys, a dunmer knight is first of my characters to face this choise. He hasn't made up his mind yet, but I think he's going to side with Greaybeards.

My characters always tell Delphine to go away and never contact them again when she demands that they kill Paarthy for no reason other then he was a violent dragon during the dragon wars. Helping the Dovahkiin and preparing them for their fight with Alduin counts as redemption imo and he did one thing no dragon would do, at the time. He turned against Alduin by teaching the nords the thu'um. Without him, the dragon wars would have ended in defeat for the nords even with Akatosh's dragonborns.

yes, it's a fact about Paarthy that Esbern handily disregards, despite being the blades' loremaster before the Great War

I side with the Greybeards, because the Blades are lazy schmucks.

Let me get this straight: an order of dragonslayers knows exactly where a creaky old dragon is living, and they ask you to kill him. All the while you're a little busy— well, I don't know— saving the entire frickin' world...

...do it yourself, losers!

I thnk it was lazy on the part of the writers to handle it the way they did.

Yep and it's hard to believe that Paarthy's role near the end of the war was not known by the blades due to them knowing he killed thousands. I hate how they invite themselves to the peace treaty at High Hrothgar without even caring about what affect it could have on it. Also, i'm certain that serving the dragonborn involves following their wishes instead of doing whatever they deem best for them.

I'm replaying the main quest and in Esbern's defence, he is 'just' a sort of librarian who has been ruthlessly hounded by the Thalmor for decades and living in a sewer, and not an army general with great tactical and leadership skills.

So the responsible thing to do would probably be to restock his library and employ his strengths as advisor and lore master, rather than expect him to lead the blades in such a time. He admits he's at the ragged edge when you meet him, and it's understandable he can't make good decisions later on (if that's how you interpret his attitude)

Delphine doesnt seem too solid as commander material either, she should be the spy master of the blades, organising the saboteurs, assassins and intel gatherers

I'm currently doing the main quest for the second time. The first time, my Nord smith found it easy to honor Parthurnaax's service against Alduin and to tell Delphine to get lost. This time I'm playing a more ambitious character with a more flexible sense of honor, and I thought I'd try finding a reason to kill Parthurnaax, but I just can't justify it. He was scheming enough to rebuild the Blades and get Esbern's infusion before starting The Fallen, but there's no good reason (other than keep the Blades available for Dragon Hunting*) to kill Parthurnaax at this point. The way my character sees it, he can kill Parthurnaax at any time, and leaving him alive poses no marginal risk while retaining the assistance of the Greybeards.

From a role-playing standpoint, only a character who is both anti-dragon and treacherous would do as Delphine demands.

* I'm using Amazing Follower Tweaks, so if I really wanted I could collect all three recruits for a hunt on my own.

This is absolutely true. The choice should have been more obvious.
For example, the dragonborn returns from a quest to the greybeards, only to find HH raided, with a dying greybeard on the floor. He would tell the DB, that blades came to kill parthy, so the DB proceeds outside the practiceyard, to find the beards and the blades facing each other, the beards protecting the path to their master.
Then comes a short argument where both sides try to convince the DB to help them. So you get to chose to side with the blades and kill the beards and their master or answer the blades: "I say thee nay foul agents of the empire. For your evil shalt be expelled form this place, and thou shalt be wiped from the face of tamriel to the last of your newborns in the name of Tiber Septim in whose name you claim to act."
And poof there goes their essential status, so the DB can murder them, and put their home to the torch.

That would have been a lot better than this "Nyah nyah. We don't speak to you because you suck." attitude.

I am not sure if it was lazy, but i do think they over simplified a complex situation. They built up the storylines and characters very well and actually the way in which the game forces you into a black/white decision in order to resolve things (Greybeards OR Blades) is very un-TES like imo