Lore talk:Argonian

Trandoshans

please remove hte reference to trandoshans they are of star wars and it does not fit the style in which this article is presented— Unsigned comment by 68.61.76.75 (talk) at 15:51 on 26 November 2006

I've removed the Trandoshan comment and replaced it with one about mixing Arena and Daggerfall Argonians. Whoever put it in there should kindly refrain from using references from other universes I think - it's not suitable for the most part. And not everyone knows what a Trandoshan is, as I believe the species name was only ever mentioned outside of the films. --Thedoctor44 16:21 May 2007 (GMT)

Argonian Life Phases

In the race selection window in Morrowind it says something along the lines of, "In the male phase they are strong and dumb" yadda yadda " and in the female life phase they are weak and witty". This clearly suggests they change sex halfway through their life, and should be looked in to. — Unsigned comment by 208.98.222.8 (talk) at 06:04 on 5 May 2008

This is indeed interesting, and may well be related to the dialogue of some Argonians in Oblivion. City-Swimmer (an Argonian female) for instance, refers to herself as male: "Does anyone see City-Swimmer? Is he gliding beneath the silver water? Is he creeping 'round a corner, hugging a wall, silent as a shadow in the dark." 77.161.184.122 11:29, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

Although, this would hardly be the only case where an NPC was referred to using the wrong gender pronouns in Oblivion, and it's not just Argonians. However, I have heard something (I forget where) about the life phases and the possibility of a change of gender at some point in their life cycle (though I'm not sure it's necessarily at the halfway point, or that it's always male-to-female, or that it happens only once even). The fact is that very little is known at this time about the physiology of Argonians, so until Bethesda sees fit to give us a little more to go on, we can only guess at the specifics. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 12:17, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

Or, that could just be a minor typo in Morrowind(because it never stated that in oblivion) and as the above comment stated this isnt the first time in Oblivion that a gender confusion statement has been made by an NPC but then again I could be wrong--LuciusZelgius 20:56, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Even if they do change gender halfway through life, it cannot possibly be the same for each one...Look at Ocheeva and Teinaava. They're twins, but one's female, one's male. This would make them precisely the same age...but different genders, denying that, if they do change gender at the midpoint of life, it is not the same for each individual Diamantus 14:12, 6 January 2009 (EST)

Assuming, of course, that they are identical twins, and not fraternal twins. I remember the dialogue stating that they were "egg-mates". This could possibly refer to two argonians born from the same clutch of eggs, rather than the same egg itself. Scxe 15:59, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

I read somewhere that the genders of Argonians were determined by how many times they lick the sap off of the hist trees. Were I read this I cannot recall. --Anzoon 18:49, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

(←) I've been looking into the Life Phases of Argonians for some time now (sad... I know) for the purposes of a Race Mod for Morrowind I'm working on that has elder and juvenile versions of (probably) each race. I encountered a problem with the Argonians - the lore does indeed seem to suggest that each Argonian individual goes through a female life phase and a male life phase but does not specify how, when or in which order a particular individual changes from one to the other. I wondered if the change could happen more than once in an individual’s life time, say once a year in a particular season… or perhaps during certain moon conjunctions/phases (?) – in which case the elder and juvenile Argonians could be either male or female just like the adult can be... but then all individuals would change at the same time and you couldn't have both male and female Argonians at the same time.

The only "logical" and lore correct answer I could come up with though is this - all Argonians are hatched as female so all juvenile and virgin adults are female (highly intelligent, and gifted in the magical arts), and then assume that the male phase only kicks in after a now adult female has birthed offspring / eggs. Once successfully given birth the individual undergoes certain hormonal and physiological changes that transforms them into the more aggressive male phase (with the traits of the hunter: stealth, speed, and agility) to better protect its brood while they're young and defenseless and to then hunt out a young female(s) to mate with once the offspring can look after themselves. Therefore - for my purposes anyway - most elder Argonians would be male apart from any “spinster” or “barren” females.

This would allow for two siblings of the same age but differing sexes, one being female (hasn't given birth yet) and one male (has given birth and gone through the "change"). I’m keen to hear any suggestions or comments though - or to hear of any pertinent lore. Harbinger451 01:58, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

You have this all wrong. Argonians don't undergo sex changes at any time in their life, rather, over the course of multiple lives. Argonians believe in reincarnation, so if you are born a male then you are going trough the male phase, and if you are born a female you are going trough the female phase. Each life is thought to be a phase of their reincarnation cycle. --98.150.152.14 08:20, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Your source for that statement is what, exactly? rpeh •T•C•E• 08:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Sadly, I can't remember a source at the moment :( --98.150.152.14 08:41, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Well I can't find anything in either Morrowind's books or dialogue. rpeh •T•C•E• 08:42, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

If the evidence for Argonian gender change only occurs in a Morrowind description, it would be best to say that "In TES Morrowind, Argonians are mentioned to have life phases" or something like that. There should really be a differentiation between in-game race information given that there is no present information about life phases in any other TES game besides Morrowind. What may apply to a previous title will not necessarily transfer to the next one, just look at the changes from Morrowind to Oblivion, and Oblivion to Skyrim. — Unsigned comment by 70.184.5.80 (talk) at 17:16 on 12 November 2011

Yeah, from what I've read it's got nothing to do with reincarnation, but works instead like the gender changing species of the real world- that is the gender changes depending on certain situations (ex. Clown fish live in a hierarchy with a single female at the top serviced by many males. Upon the females death one of the males will then urn into a female to allow the groups survival.) I suppose I could possibly see the body undergoing a metamorphosis that may temporarily mimic death, leading the changed individual seemingly having been reincarnated, but reincarnation is being reborn, as an egg in this case, but I'd doubt a gender change would revert them to an egg, and even if it did this wouldn't be 'true' reincarnation. For Argonians I'm not sure what the exact stimulus to change would be, it may even be a totally conscious decision, or as some have said it could have something to do with the hist tree. From what the many Argonians have said of their individual pasts I don't think it has anything to do with age, although this could simply be left out on purpose to be clarified at a later date. Given the universe though, it could just be something thrown down to magic or something like that too, maybe migrating souls in a similar fashion to how souls are captured using soul gems? This would need the secondary vessel, but maybe this has something to do with the hist tree. Or possibly the soul is stored in some way (again maybe the hist tree, or something like a soul gem) while the body changes, then the soul is re-inserted, leaving the same soul with a different gender. This could explain why it's not more common- maybe they need some special ritual site or something like that possibly only located in one place, or maybe it's just extremely difficult/time consuming/expensive to set up. 68.200.239.165 06:38, 13 November 2011 (UTC)otakun

What about the different books, and the like? Non-game cannon information. I know some of the books/sections aren't cannon, but I'd thought there were plenty of non-game cannon sources. 68.200.239.165 06:38, 13 November 2011 (UTC)otakun

(←) The only reason this topic was brought up was because the Morrowind character description mentioned life phases in a discreet manner, and technical gender confusion by the voice actors apparently "validates" an assumption. If there is any mention in non-game canon sources about gender change, then there would need to be confirmation in the game canon, otherwise it shouldn't be immediately assigned as a fact for all game canon. — Unsigned comment by 70.184.5.80 (talk) at 18:05 on 13 November 2011

Until Bethesda contradicts or disclaims it, the gender-bending nature of the Argonians is canon. Background information in game manuals does not need to be validated by the games themselves; the information is presumed true until categorically proven otherwise. These games all build on each other; the idea that each scrap of information must re-confirmed in each subsequent game in order to be considered canon is entirely unfeasible and unnecessary. Minor Edits 05:18, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

But how would one know if they interpreted the game manual correctly? Someone could have said that it was a differentiation of the slave-group Argonians in Morrowind because of the biased nature of the majority population, or someone could have said that a life-phase is the equivalent of the gender differentiation among Argonians simply because gender forms the basis for their grouping. How can we know the truth if we know nothing about interpretation? — Unsigned comment by 70.184.5.80 (talk) at 05:45 on 14 November 2011

The consensus impression of the community on disputed points of fact. It works surprisingly well, with the occasional hiccup. Minor Edits 06:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Then I work to spread doubt, at least hoping to do so. When facts finally do become contradicted in the future, like they always do, I hope to have created some leverage for the "bad" argument. — Unsigned comment by 70.184.5.80 (talk) at 23:34 on 14 November 2011

(←) I was going to make a new section on it but I guess it could just go here, as well; I feel that the gender bending debate has actually been disproven by Skyrim most recently. The characters Talen-Jei and Keerava are courting for marriage, and the marriage that Talen-Jei describes has no actual references to gender change in it. Not a hint. And he describes having moved to Riften at a very young age and has been "smitten with her ever since". I mean in all sense of reason, the game is never going to have a character that explicitly says "Hey you know that thing in the Morrowind manual? Yeah that was bull." You can't have evidence to disprove something that was never conceived of; in other words, a character is never going to say "We stay the same gender our entire life." We can only work off of circumstantial evidence in this instance. I feel that the sentence about gender change is confusing for new readers, and should be clarified. — Unsigned comment by Squiver (talk • contribs) at 01:51 on 21 November 2011

Not to mention that if the "community consensus" of opinion is what we're going on, then I think the "community consensus" is that it is misinterpreted. Just read any of the recent discussion boards to see that. — Unsigned comment by Squiver (talk • contribs) at 23:25 on 21 November 2011

The note about gender has been adjusted to something (hopefully) more neutral. The quote from Morrowind is relevant information, but so is the fact that there are no further references to the gender changes - in stark contrast to Khajiit forms or Bosmer transformations, which both have numerous mentions. 68.54.248.74 01:48, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is that never once has there been a direct reference about argonians being able to change gender, so it is not fact, it is speculation. If we do include it we need to make that clear.— Unsigned comment by 98.150.152.14 (talk) at 07:45 on 2 December 2011

In reply to 68.54.248.74, I think it is self-evident that Bethesda is refusing to elaborate any further on any unique traits of the genitalia of the various races (thank god). If what most people think "life phase" means is true, the whole concept falls into this banned category of speech, so it will never be discussed again. Bethesda presumably does not want players to start thinking about the genitalia of Argonians growing ... falling off ... shedding, whatever.

I'm not sure what you mean about numerous mentions of Khajiit and Bosmer transformations in this context. The info about Khajiit genitalia from The Real Barenziah was censored; I'm pretty sure that was the only reference to their junk in the lore. Bosmer transformations in the Wild Hunt are not of a sexual nature, so there would be no bar to mentioning them. However, just because something is never brought upon again doesn't take the pee out of the swimming pool, so to speak. We can't just ignore information that hasn't been more recently corroborated by other sources, because most of the information we have would be thrown out the window. Bethesda's policy of silence means that certain pieces of information they had already given us have not been and will never be contradicted or elaborated upon, meaning they stand unrefuted. It's ironic, but if that's correct, it means any racial genitalia information we have is actually the most reliable information on the wiki, as basically everything else can be potentially refuted or retconned. But no matter what else may change, Khajiits will always have barbed penises, and Argonians will always most likely be gender-benders. Minor Edits 07:58, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't necessarily mean to imply that the Khajiit/Bosmer transformations were sexual in nature, just that they were similar biological transformations and that there was a lot of written evidence regarding them. Books (in game and out) have featured the different Khajiit forms, the lore has had plenty of references to the Bosmer Wild Hunts, and so on. The fact that there is nothing like that for Argonian gender transformation really seems to suggest that it doesn't happen. We've had published novels depicting and explaining Argonian culture, in-game books about peoples' explorations in Black Marsh, married Argonian couples, Argonians with gender-specific words in their names, human men lusting after Argonian women, and even borderline-pornographic stories about Argonian maids, all with no mention of Argonians being able to change gender. If Argonians can change gender, it seems as though it is the best kept secret in all of Tamriel.

I don't mean to imply it is definitively false, but I do think there is insufficient evidence to make a statement about it. A Life-Phase, as someone pointed out, could just as easily refer to the Argonian belief in reincarnation (detailed in one of the novels, I forget which). All the statements I've seen about Argonian gender change seem to imply it has much more evidence than it actually does; even the current version, that argonian gender is "sometimes referred to as a life-phase", doesn't adequately capture that it was referred to as a life phase in one instance. 68.54.248.74 09:32, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I like that theory most, and what I've been reading, because it makes a lot more logical sense. Male-phase and Female-phase relating to the Argonian belief in reincarnation...in that in one life they are male, and in another they could be female. Sounds like an easy misconception on word play. I think it definitely refers to reincarnation phases, rather than changing gender in the middle of their lives. Perhaps Bethesda meant for Argonians to actually reincarnate when they wrote that in Morrowind...perhaps they STILL intend for Argo's to reincarnate. We don't know until they say so, but what I think is certain is Argonians remain a single gender in a whole life. Hope this adds insight --Yal 06:13, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

(←) I think that what they mean by life-phase is the part of thier life before they lick the hist sap and the time after and that depending on how much hist sap they lick, it will determine if they change genders or if they remane the gender they were when they hatched.— Unsigned comment by 64.118.18.94 (talk) at 23:45 on 23 April 2012

Arena Argonians

The fact that that the argonians of Arena look like gray humans, is not necesarily a different race it means the game develops, maybe they couldn't make them that way before please remove the race section — Unsigned comment by 152.93.145.17 (talk) on 27 January 2010

I know this is two years old, but thought I would put in a voice and say 'I concur'. I think it's pretty clear that Argonians, and all races, will continue to develop over time, and that it's obvious that it was the case for Argonians in Arena. For as rushed as that game got, I think it's pretty clear that it was a developmental limit that they looked like that. Hope this offers insight --Yal 06:24, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Argonian names

Do you know anything about the meaning of Argonian's names and method of their creating (for those not being just "Runs-In-Circles" or anything like that)? - ZuTheSkunk 20:08, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

The only case I can think of where a translation is given is that "Haj-Ei" is Argonian for "Hides-His-Eyes" - see Morrowind:The Drunken Bounty Hunter. I've always assumed that all Argonians have both Argonian names and Cyrodilic translations, and some choose to go by one and others by the other. rpeh •T•C•E• 12:06, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I would agree on Argonians translating their names into simple equivalents in the Cyrodilic language. Also, 'Travelling-New-Woman' has some dialogue that gives insight in how Argonians get their names. It wasnt on her page, so I added it :) I would suspect Argonian names are descriptive in nature, related to something that made an impression during the time of the naming ceremony. Wich makes 'Morning-Star-Steals-Away-Clouds' all the more beautiful imo. --Merari 16:21, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Ancient Argonian Art?

"Ancient cave paintings depict figures which appear to be more tree-like than Argonian." Anyone know if there is any art of these creatures? I'd love to work on something involving them, but I haven't been able to find any depictions of them. 68.200.239.165 06:41, 13 November 2011 (UTC)otakun

Referring to the hist? Saintjiub 18:11, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I think he might be referring to the Infernal City book, which I think contained some detail about ancient Argonians depicted as tree-like on cave paintings. Now I don't know the canon on the books (I think there is some importance in it) but I could be wrong on the thing entirely. — Unsigned comment by 70.184.5.80 (talk) at 22:42 on 13 November 2011

I think of that line as a tongue-in-cheek reference to the Argonian concept art image. The Argonian it depicts has long, twig-like limbs and various decorations that give him a sort of tree-like appearance, and concept art is the videogame-industry equivalent to "ancient cave paintings". If that's true, then the art you're looking for is on the page. Minor Edits 05:49, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Hatchling gender determined by hist sap?

I've read the reference for gender of hatchlings (number 5, about Travelling-New-Woman), but it does not support the argument: "My parents told me not to lick the Hist tree until my Naming Day, so I did. My parents caught me and a boy from my nest in a soft-leaf patch right before the naming ceremony. I feared I'd get more of a licking from my parents than I gave the tree... So I ran as fast as I could through the swamp and into the rest of the kids waiting for their naming ceremony. Everyone had a good laugh and the name stuck." If the hist sap does affect gender, then how come there is a boy Argonian before the naming ceremony, where they lick the hist sap? This discussion needs to be seriously reconsidered. — Unsigned comment by 70.184.5.80 (talk) at 22:28 on 13 November 2011‎

I think you're misreading the second paragraph of the page, which says that the Hist sap affects their appearance, not their gender. Also, I think you're presuming that Argonian hatchlings would be asexual before ingesting the sap. There's no reason to think that they don't start life with a gender. You also seem to be under the impression that the Argonian children in the story are the same age, which there's no evidence of, and which the sequence of events suggests is unlikely: if it was the boy's naming day, as well, he would have run with the author to the naming ceremony upon being caught by her parents. Anyways, I'm not entirely sure what "argument" your railing against here. If you're suggesting that footnote 5(b) doesn't fully support the information attributed to it, I agree. I don't think there's a source out there claiming that the amount of Hist sap ingested by Argonian hatchlings determines their appearance. The proposition was on the page before I revamped it and checked everything a few weeks ago, and I didn't have the wherewithal to debunk it. Minor Edits 05:42, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant footnote 5(a). It says that Argonian hatchlings may be of either gender, but what exactly does that mean? From previous discussions on this talk page, I assumed it related to an argument supporting asexual hatchlings, which like you said that there is no reason to think that they don't start with a gender. That is what I'm trying to dispute, but it also says "from my nest," which could put the two referred hatchlings roughly under the same age. — Unsigned comment by 70.184.5.80 (talk) at 05:56 on 14 November 2011‎

The part about Argonian hatchlings being of either gender does read kind of poorly; I think it was added just to discount the notion that gender is tied to age. Which is a kind of questionable thing to add in the first place, given there isn't really any concrete evidence they even change gender. Someone should probably edit that whole part to reconsider what evidence is important or not.68.54.248.74 10:56, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I am fairly certain I read somewhere that the amount of hist sap licked at it's naming day determines how human-like the Argonian will turn out looking.

It does not say whether more or less will make you look human, but the fact that the least humanoid tribes of Argonians (Sarpa, Naga etc) live in the inner Black Marsh, closest to the Hist, would suggest that the less sap, the less "feral". Nothing was mentioned about the gender however, leading me to assume that they are not genderless, but also leaving open the option for them to be able to change gender as certain reptiles are. (Not sure what my IP is, sorry. 10:53 6th Feb 2013 (CET) --93.162.119.14

(←) How long is the statement about Hist Sap affecting appearance going to stay without citation? This isn't a small assertion and I can't find anything to support it. --DagmarH (talk) 16:32, 29 March 2013 (GMT)

1 Done. I removed it. Jeancey (talk) 18:07, 29 March 2013 (GMT)

Just to clarify, I believe that part was referring to the Lord of Souls novel, were several details of the Hist are revealed. Here is the section from the book. Make of it what you will:

"Some say we were created by the Hist, to see for them the world where they cannot walk. They can call us or send us away. When we are named, we take of the sap of the Hist, and we are changed—sometimes a little, sometimes very much. ...

"A few twelves of years ago, our country was invaded from Oblivion. The Hist knew it was going to happen, and called our people back to Black Marsh. Many of us were altered, made ready for the war that we had to fight. Made stronger, faster—able to endure terrible things. ..." --Jimeee (talk) 18:37, 29 March 2013 (GMT)

The Keyes novels were indeed my reference when adding that sentence. —Legoless (talk) 18:49, 29 March 2013 (GMT)

Ok, so should the section be added back if this is considered a valid source? --Jimeee (talk) 20:00, 29 March 2013 (GMT)

It's a valid source. I think it should be added back, with a LOS cite, of course. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 20:10, 29 March 2013 (GMT)

(←) The second quote seems to indicate that it still has effects on adults, maybe the statement about the Hist modyfing appearance should be more general, and not directly linked to their youth as it currently is? Elakyn (talk) 20:58, 29 March 2013 (GMT)

I didn't take Mere Glim's explanation of the Hist to Fhena in Part I Chapter 4 of Lord of Souls to mean the adults were physically transformed but rather made faster, stronger and more resilient consistent with the concept established in the quest Infiltration in ES IV Oblivion of Hist Sap being able to increase their battle prowess. Given the context though it may mean that they were physically changed because this concept comes up a few times in the novel in comparing the Hist being able to change the form of Saxhleel and the Fringe Gyre Trees being able to dictate the form of the Umbrelians form their initial proform. --DagmarH (talk) 00:35, 30 March 2013 (GMT)

I reverted the edit and added in the citation to Lord of Souls. I removed the reference to the amount of sap being determinative as that is not supported by the relevant passage from Lord of Souls. --DagmarH (talk) 00:46, 30 March 2013 (GMT)

Seems like it would be worthwhile to elaborate on Hist sap's transformational effects on adult Argonians, then. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 00:49, 30 March 2013 (GMT)

Would it be better to do that in the lore article on Hist and the Oblivion Crisis? There's a section specifically on Hist Sap in the Hist article. It doesn't seem to be a normal part of Argonian society's interactions with the Hist. --DagmarH (talk) 01:11, 30 March 2013 (GMT)

A certain amount of overlap is inevitable. Hist sap seems substantially relevent to both Hist and the Argonians. If the Hist Sap section is properly formatted, we could simply transclude it here. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 01:19, 30 March 2013 (GMT)

An-Xileel

Shouldn't the An-Xileel at least mentioned on this page? They have strong politic power and were important in the second arnesian war. — Unsigned comment by 92.254.96.47 (talk) on 23 March 2012

Nagas = Argonian tribe?

"'Nasty characters,' Gemullus said, frowning. 'Puff adders with legs and arms, seven feet tall, eight when they're mad. Come from the inner swamp, and they don't like it here much so they're particularly peevish.'"

Given this description from The Argonian Account, Book 2 and Nagas' presence in other fantasy literature (chiefly D&D), do we have any reason to believe they should be listed as a tribe of Argonians rather than distinct creatures? 98.101.211.118 15:00, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Book four of that same novel: "As they slid through the water, Shehs explained to Scotti that the Agacephs were one of the many Argonian tribes that lived in the interior of the province, near the Hist, finding little in the outside world worth seeing. He was fortunate to have been found by them. The Nagas, the toad-like Paatru, and the winged Sarpa would have killed him on the spot."--75.73.83.128 12:44, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

It seems a little vague, but that paragraph does seem to include the Nagas, Paatru, and Sarpa among the Argonian tribes. Their behavior also sounds like that of intelligent beings, not creatures. I think it should stand as-is. --Xyzzy^Talk 22:19, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

This has been answered. They are a tribe. Jeancey (talk) 18:08, 29 March 2013 (GMT)

I agree - the wording in book 4 suggests that they are a tribe. More importantly, though, is the fact that the term "Argonian" refers to the sentient, reptilian creatures of Argonia. This means that like the Khajiit, they can appear in many forms, some wildly different than the others, but still equally Argonian. • JA^T 18:14, 29 March 2013 (GMT)

Argonian Life Span

Has anyone information on the lifespan of an Argonian? Has this ever really been made clear in lore? Would be awesome to add this to the page, and all race pages for the different races. Also I would like to know personally :) Thanks --Yal 06:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

No TES race has had official lifespans given, AFAIK. 99.127.173.78 17:37, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Some races do have lifespan descriptions, but not Argonians. —Legoless 18:20, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

It could be presumed that they would on average live longer then most Imperials, as they are immune to disease and can breathe underwater. This would eliminate two common causes of death from the middle ages. I believe I read (Albeit from a non-sourced article) that they have a maximum lifespan of 150 years, so that's a start. — Unsigned comment by 211.27.3.137 (talk) at 08:37 on 18 January 2013

Appearance and Gender

Is it possible for an Argonian male to be feminine in appearance and vice-versa? — Unsigned comment by 75.183.15.200 (talk) at 16:22 on 9 December 2012‎

Blood debt?

I thought I read/heard somewhere that saving an Argonian's life incurs some form of life/egg/blood debt. Did I dream this up, or what is it called? — Unsigned comment by Gargamonk (talk • contribs) at 17:44 on 1 February 2013‎