Lore talk:Battle of Red Mountain

Reference

"The actual truth is that the Tribunal themselves deliberately killed Nerevar when he expressed concern at the Tribunal's own use of the Heart and wished to invoke Azura for guidance."

What? This is the Ashlanders version of the story, and they admit not one of them was there to witness it. The only one who could've confirmed this was Azura, and she did not, even though she repeatedly accused them of the crime of tapping the Heart of Lorkhan, not once did she add to that the crime of murdering Nerevar. If you read through the dialogs, she implies that the Tribunal were still loyal to Nerevar at the time of his death. — Unsigned comment by 68.190.50.241 (talk) at 01:52 on 25 July 2007 (GMT)

I agree. I got the idea that what exactly happened is a mystery that might never be solved but that it was probable that the Tribunal did not kill Nerevar. Vontos 22:09, 24 July 2007 (EDT)

Vivec confessed. And where is it ever called Lorkhan War? That sounds like a crappy anime series. Temple-Zero 22:04, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

So if this is an Ashlander's version of the story (Dagoth Ur and Nerevar killed Dumac and Kagrenac and used the Heart of Lorkhan to wipe out the Dwemer race) then does that mean that the source for this version of the story is game content form Morrowind? --DagmarH (talk) 02:26, 29 December 2012 (GMT)

I've been meaning to clean up this page; I'll cite appropriately. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 03:24, 29 December 2012 (GMT)

Lorkhan War

To reiterate Temple-Zero's concern above, there's no source for the term "Lorkhan War". User Benould added it to this page in 2008, but he's no longer active and thus can't shed any light. I was the one who added it to Vivec's lore page (I'll be removing it from there shortly), and I did so in reliance on this page. It doesn't appear anywhere else.

I thought maybe it came from the books, but the Infernal City wasn't published until 2009. I did my best to comb through the Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim game data for the term and found nothing (though I'm no expert at searching through the game data). I searched the web to see if another site had a source listed for the term, but none did. I have this nagging feeling I've gone through this process before and had the source corroborated, but I can't find a record of any discussion on it. So I've removed it. If anyone can find a source, let me know, because I do like the name. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 17:59, 6 October 2012 (GMT)

Revamp

Revamp here. Very long, much change, u read long time. If boo-boo, u rite me here or fix urself. k, bye. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 07:03, 13 March 2013 (GMT)

Went ahead and posted it. Peer review is welcome.

There are many hints throughout the sources that, taken together, suggest that Nerevar ordered Dagoth Ur to "betray" him by going to the Nords, that he tricked the outlanders into attacking Dumac's citadel first so that the Nordic forces could soften the Dwemer defenses and leave them in disarray when the Chimer forces arrived. I think this was part of the "maneuverings" and "contrivances" that Nerevar employed to win the battle. It would also explain why the Nords suffered such heavy losses, and why they perceived that they had been ambushed by united Chimer-Dwemer forces. Dagoth Ur's message laments how he had sacrificed his honor to serve Nerevar; leading the Nords into this trap could be all or part of what he is referring to. I'm pretty sure this was the case, but, you know, original research, blah blah blah. But I tried to emphasize certain facts so the reader could easily come to this conclusion. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 21:44, 13 March 2013 (GMT)

Outlanders account

I think we should include more on why we Shor and Wulfrath marched on red mountain and the significance of Shor/Wulfrath reuniting with their heart only to have it removed again. I think it would also be nice to include in the Khajjit story that they did not stop to eat moon sugar, giving more credibility to the idea there was a dragon break. If the Khajiit were not at red mountain and had continued eating moon sugar as usual, they would have noticed the dragon break and have a more clear account on what happened that day.Woodhouse (talk) 14:06, 1 January 2014 (GMT)Woodhouse

See here, rest of universe. While I tend to agree with your underlying assumption about moon sugar personally, I don't think the wiki can treat it as fact. To my knowledge, the only source which suggests that moon sugar is involved with some Khajiiti ability to resist a Dragon Break is Where Were You When the Dragon Broke?, specifically:

"While you were fighting wars with phantoms and giving birth to your own fathers, it was the Mane that watched the ja-Kha'jay, because the moons were the only constant, and you didn't have the sugar to see it."

According to some lore sources, moon sugar use in Elsweyr is like cigarettes in 1950s America, even though sugar is commonly disfavored in other TES cultures. The phrase "you didn't have the sugar to see it" could be a common one referring to this cultural distinction. The sentence could be read to mean "The moons remained constant, we Khajiiti are especially attuned to them, so we know how much time passed, you stupid apes and lizards." Not saying I agree, but since it's the only source, I don't think the inference is strong enough for us to go building it up as TES fact.

There's always a question of relevance. If we're going to go into any further detail about the (highly likely) possibility that a Dragon Break occurred, it seems to me that it would be more relevant at Lore:Dragon Break than here. This page is just about the facts, for the most part, and the Dragon Break page is already a playground of speculation. Further, the final sentence of it is tailor-made to expand upon this topic. Literally, I revised it a year ago with this eventuality in mind. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 03:17, 2 January 2014 (GMT)

Lorkhan War revisited

Years ago the inclusion of the alternative name for the battle “Lorkhan War” was removed from the page as nobody could seem to verify a source behind it, it has now been brought to light the term was indeed used in an old draft of Varieties of Faith. I was surprised to see my addition of this term removed and dispute the basis of the removal. An alternative name for a person, place, or thing is by no means “a direct conflict of the name” it is merely just that, an alternative name. Users will notice all throughout our articles we have multiple names for many subjects and these exist not as conflicts but simply different names for the same thing. Beyond this Lorkhan War is also a very fitting term for the battle as nearly every source that describes the event features Lorkhan showing up in the flesh, or at the very least the mentioning of the subject of the entire the battle, his heart. Overall this fits the bill of UOL quite well and I see no basis for the removal of this information which is a secondary name, not an attempt at a usurping of the main name. The sooner we restore the better. Dcking20 (talk) 01:03, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Given the fact Lorkhan plays a major role in the Battle of Red Mountain, the fact his Heart is the main reason for the war. The fact that Shor, Nordic Lorkhan gets involved in an attempt to reclaim his heart. One of the outcomes has Lorkhan reclaiming his heart temporary before losing it once more. The fact that Lorkhan might be responsible for the Dwemer disappearance in one of the outcomes. Goes to show that it was the Lorkhan War. So I support the inclusion of the Lorkhan War, because its not just an alternate name. Its a factual reality that Lorkhan played a major role in it directly and indirectly, to the point where it would make sense for some observers to call it that.TheVampKnight (talk) 02:26, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't think an earlier draft is really relevant at all if it never saw the light of day in game and was explicitly removed. Otherwise we can also be saying Auridon has Ayleid Ruins or that the Mages Guild was contemporary to Rada Al-Saran in the First Era. Jacksol (talk) 02:33, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Maybe we could add it in as a note, instead of adding it to the main body.The note stating that an Early Draft of this lorebook called it the Lorkhan War. I think that would be the best solution here. I think its worthy enough info to be added in as a note. We have done it with other concepts. So I could see it fitting a note for this page to do something similar.TheVampKnight (talk) 02:40, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Cut content never makes it into the main body of the article (conflicting or not) given its nature. Its a note at best. --Jimeee (talk) 10:10, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Do we actually have a copy of this early draft? The citation provided here is not sufficient. I would tend to agree with Jimeee, this is cut content and is better off in the notes section if it's mentioned at all. —⁠Legoless (talk) 10:24, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

aye, here is the link to the old draft https://web.archive.org/web/20010423052133fw_/http://www.m0use.net/~xanathar/es_tamriel_gods-dunmer.html Dcking20 (talk) 13:03, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

(←) I only removed the note from this page, I actually left the note on the book itself, which I think is a fine place for it. Jeancey (talk) 17:58, 8 November 2021 (UTC)