Lore talk:Pelinal Whitestrake

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Contents 1 format 2 predecessors 3 test-run for the line in parenthesis 4 First Issue of Challenge

[edit] format

I would appreciate it if a Mentor would put the Song of Pelinal, Before the Ages of Man and the Oblivion: Pelinal links in their proper positions. Looks alot better now.

[edit] predecessors

Before the Ages of Man is old lore from way before kotn. The Song of Pelinal names him as Pelinal the Third because of his relation to those other Shor avatars. He is the third in a line of champions and we have names for the other two. Pelinal never ruled anything, and did not use magicka excepting his cyborg and time-traveling tendencies, yet Ages of Man describes a sorcerer king who created many kingdoms. Remember that this is the story from an elven perspective, and exhibits bias in the line directly above this one. Pelinal is accounted part of a series of champions that can be viewed as equivalents and the same person. So the timeline isn't far wrong. Pelinal is, however, an exception because he is a dual avatar of Lorkhan AND Akatosh, not just the one. Not a retcon so much as an update. It's another case of sources that seem to conflict, but still inform the reader on their respective subjects. For perspective, we're basically talking about Lorkhan recurring, and you know his most recent incarnation as Wulfharth or Ysmir.Temple-Zero 13:58, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

"the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc." (from Before the Ages of Man)

That's pretty explicit that they're all the same person. "Variously known" means that ONE person has several names, not that there are several people. I didn't undo your edit out of spite, I undid it because it's wrong. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 14:19, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

Of course you didn't do it out of spite, you did it because you read one sentence of a single, biased, outdated source on the subject at hand, and chose to believe its vague brevity over all other sources. I believe that you have extensively expounded on the tenuous nature of ES texts. Does this only apply when you during the unofficial lore debate? Pelinal is not a Sorcerer. Pelinal is not a king. The source is wrong. Did you read my post? Respond to it and this doesn't need to be an edit war. This is the Pelinal article, not the Before the Ages of Man article. If you want the line to stay, then perhaps it should be revised so it is no longer misleading.Temple-Zero 16:36, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

First, it was the original source to which you referred (here). Second, BtAoM is an in-game source and is just as valid as anything else: don't presume to decide which in-game sources are valid and which aren't. Third, The Song of Pelinal explicitly says that nobody is sure why he's called "Pelinal the Third". Fourth, it says that if he has been incarnated before it's still the same person. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 00:47, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

Hamstringing nuance and ignoring the purpose of conflicting stories in texts is one thing when it leads to simple incompleteness, but listing the names like this is misleading. I get the feeling that you don't care if it's misleading or contrary to the actual story, it's only the paraphrasing that is important. Incidentally, Before the Ages of Man was originally an unofficial lore document written by MK and put on a fan site many years ago. It was dug up and put into Oblivion, though by whose perogative I don't know. If you want the names to stay, they need to be explained, as anyone who cross-references and finds out that the hero of Kotn was actually a fighter mage with a Napoleon complex who bopped in and out of history more than the Knights Templar in crappy fiction is going to be pretty darn confused. So see what I wrote beneath here. It's *not* simple.Temple-Zero 11:20, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

I'd agree that the article isn't very well written at the moment and that listing all the names in one place like that isn't the best idea. However, my purpose thus far has simply been to establish the facts before worrying about style. Now that the facts have indeed been established, we can work on the style part. The rumor about Before the Ages of Man is interesting and goes to show that unofficial lore can indeed make it into the game. If any of the current out-of-game material is added to later games, patches, mods etc then of course it becomes canon. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 08:07, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

[edit] test-run for the line in parenthesis

His moniker 'Pelinal the Third' suggests a relationship with other supernatural champions of mankind- Harrald Harry-Breeks and Hans the Fox. Some sources suggest that he is one and the same, although it is unlikely that this is the whole story, given his more alien characteristics and persona, and the fact that he cannot easily be described as a king or sorcerer. It is also worth noting that Pelinal ultimately suffered a gruesome death (his counterparts are described as immortal), and did not reincarnate at a later date, as did his predecessors.

This could be in a notes section?Temple-Zero 17:04, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

[edit] First Issue of Challenge

The Whitestrake cracked the floor with his mace and they withdrew, and he said, "Bring me Umaril that called me out!"- Direct quote from The Song of Pelinal, v 7. (Gadianzero 22:45, 5 January 2009 (EST))

My mistake. The article is much more readable now.Temple-Zero 11:26, 6 January 2009 (EST)