Lore talk:Races

Taken From Wikipedia

I fear that a lot of the information on these pages were taken illegally from Wikipedia. I'm not 100% sure what their policy for derivative works is, but I'd like to be aware as these articles risk deletion. --Aristeo 20:40, 18 July 2006 (EDT)

Looks like there's no problem so long as we put a link-back to them. [1] --TheRealLurlock 21:59, 18 July 2006 (EDT)

Although this concern was brought forth some time ago, I would like to note that - while the articles are each greatly derivative, if not outright copied - I am currently working on revising the article for each race to be both unique and in-depth. The Khajiit page is currently posted and being slowly edited on my computer ere a new version is put up, whilst the Argonian and Altmer articles are currently underway and progressing nicely.

As to the notice itself, I see no need to be concerned about taking the information from Wikipedia. Not only will these articles be modified - not only by myself, but many others, of that I am sure - however, it must be remembered that the Wikipedia articles are but compilations of data from outside sources as well, and thus, under no copyright prohibiting derivative works from being made.

-- Booyah boy 09:22, 28 August 2006 (EDT)

Orc back to Orsimer

This discussion has been merged with the pre-existing discussion on Tamriel Talk:Orc --Nephele 02:07, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Vampires

I've added references to the Vampire factions since these, are for many game purposes, a "race". The Lore:Vampire page has the stub macro, but I'm sure it will be "fluffed-up" in no time. I'd really like to see the Morrowind Clans get pages in the Tamriel namespace, as I've done for the Daggerfall Bloodlines. I hope this might help the nice people with the MRP (Morrowind Redesign Project). Naturally if adding these links on the Lore:Races page was a Terrible Idea Which We All Will Soon Regret, then you have my appologies in advance. Just revert ;) ⌈Uniblab 14:38, 8 January 2007 (EST)⌋

Orc as Playable Race

May not be playable in Arena or Daggerfall, but definitely playable in Morrowind and Oblivion, which would be 50% of the series not counting the expansions. Plus most of the site traffic is from Oblivion and Morrowind (probably close to 90%), and a present games have them. --Ratwar 15:24, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

Makes perfect sense to me. --HMSVictory 15:25, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

My logic for unbolding it, is that the bold is stated to be for races that are playable in most of the games. Orcs are playable in 2 out of 4, which may or may not be qualified as "most." I suppose we can discuss proper classification in here. Durza 17:12, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

Well, is a totally unrelated system, .5 rounds up to 1, and I'd qualify 'most' as those percentages that would round up to 100%. I think more than anything this is a problem with the wording 'most'. What if we changed the statement to Races in bold are playable races in the most recent games. I can definitely see your point about how that is somewhat wrong.--Ratwar 18:13, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

Great plan, Ratwar! I've done so. Durza 18:51, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

ideas for Divine format

I feel we should replace 'Divine' with 'et'ada' and divide that into Aedra and Daedra, perhaps with Magna Ge and Mnemolia as well.

A complaint about real world parallels

I am writing this to argue for the removal (or moratorium, or trimming, whathaveyou) of the parts of the Races section where editors try to find the real world influences of the human races and then blow them out of proportion and add a little embellishment. This does not contribute to your understanding of the subject, it merely recalls those endless threads on the forums where everyone who can recognize an obvious name similarity will say Nords! Vikings! Imperial! Romans! Redguards! Black People! (Or was it Persians? Or Swahilis?) Bretons! French!(Although I have heard British) Firstly, these things are nebulous and unimportant. It is not lore. And the Nords aren't Scandinavian, they're Germanic. I mean Anglo-Saxon. Or something. Second, their inclusion violates the style guide. Third, there it an important difference between 'based upon' and 'inspired by.' If the Bretons really were the inhabitants of Brittany, when they went to war with the navies of the Aldmeri Dominion, they would have used a Tamrielic version of the Chasse-maree and kicked ass.Temple-Zero 20:44, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

extinct

Does anyone feel that we should make a note of the three races on this page that no longer exist?74.65.142.202 21:02, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

I don't see why not --Darth NANAME 23:55, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

I can't think of an apt word, however. 'Extinct' doesn't sound quite right. Perhaps rather than a parenthetical label, an asterisk with a note at the bottom or top of the list.Temple-Zero 10:30, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

Kothringi

I added a link to the article here. Is this ok? --Max Welrod 03:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah. Makes sense. You don't always need to ask though - if other editors think there's a problem they'll undo your edit and explain why in an edit summary or talk page post. –rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 06:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Dragons

Aren't Dragons sentient in Tamriel? Should they be included here?Juz 04:56, 27 November 2009 (UTC)-- 04:52, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't really think that they should be added as the races here are only man , mer and beast not sentient. Besides, I think they would fit more into the creature category than races, just like the hist.--^MC• S'drassa ^•T2M 05:11, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Race Images in Lore

We have no images for a lot of the races. Also why is it that there are no illustrations of typical Bosmer/Altmer/Nord/Argonian/Breton/Dunmer/Khajiit females? Even if no "official" image exists is there some reason none of the people on here can draw one? We have access to all of those races in the games why can no-one use some of the images on here to make illustrations? I accept that using screenshots isn't a good option - although it could be used in the short term - because these are lore articles and any screenshot is from one of the games, but they are something that we can use as a start. Also why is only one of the Khajiit subspecies shown on the Khajiit page?--TheAlbinoOrc^{any_questions?} 23:21, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I doubt anyone is that good a drawer (Or has the ability to draw a picture then upload it). But we could have a up close of a, say, Dunmer female with the default face, hair and a prison shirt, from both Morrowind and Oblvion. --Arch-Mage Matt ^{Did I Do That?}

The images come from the official site. I'd rather not start including fan-generated content on Lore pages. rpeh •T•C•E• 12:27, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

What about Lore:Falmer? Screenshots are fan generated and noboby has objected to them being there.--TheAlbinoOrc^{any_questions?} 18:09, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The images in the screenshots aren't fan-generated. rpeh •T•C•E• 18:17, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Those are in-game images; fan-generated would actually be drawn by fans. A lot of the races don't have pics cause we don't have official or in-game pictures. If we start including fan art, it wouldn't be very... loreish. -- Jplatinum16 02:57, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Sithis~

Shouldn't Sithis be included here somewhere?

Why? Sithis has no confirmed race AFAIK.--^Corevette₇₈₉ 22:02, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

General question about age

Has it been established in the Elder Scrolls series how long the mer and beast races live, relative to man? This sort of thing seems to be hugely variable depending on the individuals access to magic and such, but has a natural life expectancy ever been found? Just curious. --Admos 20:06, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I think I may have found the answer to my own question, here. A quote from The Real Barenziah: "Katisha's face briefly wore the envious, wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could. And one or two of them actually did." A thousand years? That's quite a steep difference. I always assumed it was a hundred years or so. That will certainly change how I think of Elder Scrolls lore. Has this been modified at all throughout the series? --Admos 14:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

They can get older than that - Divayth Fyr is supposed to be over 4000 years old. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 14:10, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I remember that character, I always assumed it was something to do with magic. I suppose seeing as elves are innately magical races it partially is. At first I thought this would mean massive overpopulation, but the same book revealed that Elves generally only have one or two children. So what about beast races? Is there any info on them? I imagine that Khajiit live shorter lifespans, being somewhere between big cats (twenty - thirty?) and humans (about seventy to eighty?), they'd maybe see the better part of fifty or sixty years? Or maybe that sort of reasoning doesn't apply in the ES universe. And what about the Argonians? Do they just shed ageing scales and keep living? And Orcs are technically elves too, would they live for centuries if not for the warrior culture? --Admos 12:37, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Argonians if I recall are a special case, in that they supposedly have multiple life cycles - I think they actually may change gender as they age. What this says about their overall life-span I don't know. I also don't think there's anything to suggest that Khajiit live shorter lives than humans or other races. I believe there are some very old Orcs seen in lore - Umbra for example, though it's possible his age has been extended by his connection with the sword. Of course, even humans in this universe can live much longer than in the real-world, at least in cases of magical intervention, e.g. Ulfgar the Unending, who is well over 500. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 03:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Divayth Fyr and other Telvanni live a lot longer than most Dunmer since they use magic to extend their lifespan. — Unsigned comment by 76.105.239.216 (talk) at 22:21 on 3 April 2013

removal of vampires

This has been marked as a question that needs to be answered.

vampires are not a race of people or humaniods they're the diseased, in which first weakens, then transforms those infected into the feared creatures of the night. if this remains we might as well add other creatures such as wolves,fish,deer,and many others.The wiki says races are refer to their main sapient humanoid species as "races" not the disease infected.So I am asking for a Administrator to remove this from the page permanently.(Darco 00:10, 27 January 2012 (UTC))

See Daggerfall:Vampirism. They are classified as a race in this game. Seeing that is enough for me to say it should stay. And by the way, if you think something needs to be deleted, you can do it yourself leaving an edit summary justifying why it was deleted. That's the wonder of a wiki.ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 01:34, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Response it even says they can be cured so my arguement stands Vampires are disease infected creatures no matter how you look at it.(Darco 10:12, 27 January 2012 (UTC))

I'm going to have to agree with Darco here. It seems more like a gameplay mechanic in Daggerfall to have Vampires as a separate race, and vampirism is presented as a disease in all of the following games. Since 'reproduction' only occurs by spreading that disease, rather than bearing new life, I'm not sure how anyone can call it a 'race' in the sense this article intends. Same goes for all of the werecreatures. They're afflictions, not new races.--Admos 10:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Lore:Vampire trails back to this page as well, since the trail returns it to this page, I believe it should be left like it is, unless someone more experienced takes a look and decides it needs to be different. ES^{Question?•Email•Contribs} 23:03, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

It's correct to say that vampires are a race from a gameplay mechanics perspective, but in a quick search, I can't find anywhere where they're referred to as a race in-game, which is usually our acid test for how to treat something. Eric has a valid point, though: if they're not a race, what are they? They're not creatures, they're not necessarily monsters, nor do they really fit in too many other categories that I can think of. Vampirism itself may be a disease (or porphyric hemophilia), but vampires are not a disease...at least not in the traditional sense. So from a purely wiki stance, what do we use as a trail for Lore:Vampire if not this? On another technical note, we state at the top that races in bold have been playable, since vampires have been playable, as well as a couple of lycanthropes, if we remove those "races" from the page, we lose that info altogether. I can think of ways around that, but I think we're compromising in some way or another no matter what we do. – Robin Hood↝talk 23:32, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Why not leave them on the page but note they become the result of a disease from Morrowind onwards, turning them into a type of class like warrior or knight.--122.58.68.119 15:49, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

My suggestion would be that vampires be included with creatures. They can be of any race, so listing them with the other races as a seperate race doesn't make sense. Also, think of it this way, any race can become infected with the disease but if it isn't cured they become the "creature" vampire. Sort of like a skeleton undead. At one point that skeleton was of a specific race but it no longer is applicable because it is now the creature skeleton. It is probably worth stating in a vampire creature section that they may be of any race. As a side note, the same should apply to were creatures because, as seen in Skyrim, the ability to become a werewolf has nothing to do with race. They're both caused by an affliction which turns the infected individual into a monster/creature. Alexcunning 06:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

It seems that only from a game mechanics standpoint that vampires can be considered a race. From a lore perspective it would be a disease as has already been noted. As a disease it makes no sense to put the information under Lore:Creatures in that namespace's current incarnation (individual types of vampires, as they appear in the games, are covered there already and that is all that should go there with the current format).

One way of dealing with them would be to list them more extensively under factions (since most of the information seems related to the bloodlines) but this approach might cause a loss in information. Another solution would be to create a disease section within the Lore:Creatures (viruses and bacteria are fauna after all) which vampirism could be listed under along with other diseases like ataxia. The problem with this solution is it conflicts with the format of Lore:Creatures and, to make it work, the format would have to be changed (a possible working solution would be to have a Lore:Fauna section with the subcategories Creatures and Diseases). It is also possible to modify the latter idea and just create a Lore:Disease space in some other convenient section.

Those are my thoughts on possible ways of dealing with the issue. I am sure others can come up with more creative ways to deal with vampires, but I think that the important thing, is that we realize, that lore wise, the current way is unsatisfactory and we need to find a better way of doing it, without losing any of the current data. Coronus 04:43, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

The Volkihar vampires from Dawnguard are not diseased. With them, they were initially transformed via the power of Boethiah, and then later on more of them were created via sharing the blood. Same goes for werewolves in Skyrim; they are transformed via sharing the blood, and while it's not stated directly the implication is that the first Skyrim werewolves were transformed via the power of Hircine directly. They're still not like regular races because the creation of new members is only via the sharing of blood, not the usual pregnancy method, but they're not simply diseased people either. Also, at several points in the Dawnguard storyline various Volkihar vampire NPCs refer to the vampire race. --Morrolan (talk) 14:55, 13 April 2013 (GMT)

Vampires and Werewolfs, are they a playable race?

Based on the question being asked i would just like to say that you are not able to be the race of either a werewolf or vampire. however this does not mean you cannot play as these. this is quite possible to become these through either quests in-game or combat. i hope this helped anyone that may want to know about these.

Xivilai as a sentient Race.

I'm not entirely certain if we should count Xivilai as a sentient Daedric race in the same exact vein as the Dremora, Golden Saints, and Dark Seducers. I mean, if we're going to add the Xivilai to the list of sentient Daedric races, you'd might as well add the Aurorans and Knights of Order there, too. Although I still do not think that any of those three fall under the same criteria as the three "main" races bear that put them and other races, such as the Dragons, on this article. Bauglir100 21:06, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

The Xivilai were a clan in Battlespire. Whether the Daedra are sentient or not is disputable, but their leader, Xivilai Moath, certainly is. Might be best just to remove them from this page, though. --Legoless 21:40, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Update

Shouldn't we update Skyrims vampires to playable? I can't right now myself.--Br3admax 13:51, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Done. Shouldn't be too controversial, but if for some reason it turns out to be, we can always debate it here. Kitkat ^{•Talk•Contrib•E-mail} 14:23, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Orma, Yerpest, Horwalli

This discussion resulted in the creation of Lore:Orma, Lore:Yerpest and Lore:Horwalli, which all redirect to Lore:Kothringi. I don't see the need for the races/tribes to have a separate page - although I wouldn't object - seeing as there's nothing to say about them. However, I do agree with them being mentioned in the "Man" section of this article. If listing dead tribes as separate races is objected to, I think we should remove the various "Men-of-x" from the list as well. —Legoless 13:52, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

just a list

I am disappoint. This lore article isn't much of an article at all, it's just a list.

I understand that most game info pertains to specific races, but where are the discussion around topics of (just a few examples here):

• human(oid) interbreeding: are all human(oid) races "compatible" or is there race pairings that does not result in offspring?
• the question of offspring. What race will the children of a Breton - Redguard couple be? There does not seem to be any half-breeds, so let's say this couple begets six children. Will there be 6 little bretons, 6 little redguards or something in-between?
• how about orcs, khajit and argonians? Are they considered to be humanoids just like, say, Nords or Altmer. Or should they be considered more like individual species? (Mind you, just because two creatures are of different species does not preclude intercourse or procreation)
• racism on Tamriel
• socioeconomical observations regarding the different races

and so on. Regards, 90.229.34.175 09:55, 18 October 2012 (GMT)

Read Notes on Racial Phylogeny. That just about all I'm aware of ever being written about cross-race breeding (the only in-game example being The Gray Prince, as far as I'm aware). While this would be the best place for information on cross breeding as there is likely to be, it's still kind of a minor note. I'm not sure that would be enough to carry an entire article as I can't see that much of a reason for the other information. There just isn't that much that is solely relevant to races as there is dedicated to specific ones. While racism is prevalent, it also generally targets specific races, making it more relevant to them then an overview article. I also find it hard to write about socioeconomics on this page, as from my understanding of it that has more to do with specific groups (making it more appropriate on specific races articles) then it does with races in general. Also, Orcs are elves and not beast folk like like the Khajiit or Argonians. That's just a little pet peeve of mine, common mistake. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 10:24, 18 October 2012 (GMT)

Thanks for those notes! (As an aside, I chuckle at your "pet peeve" since the very notes you provide single out orcs as something even more special than even Khajit or Argonians; in fact bundling Orcs with goblins, trolls and harpies! Yes, I know orcs have elven blood ancestry, but that does not necessarily mean they reproduce like elves anylonger) Cheers CapnZapp (talk) 18:14, 21 October 2012 (GMT)

It might be helpful to have a "see also" section with that link, perhaps? — ABCface^◥ 18:16, 21 October 2012 (GMT)

Reachmen?

Currently we have the Forsworn listed as a faction. I just wanted to bring up the idea of instead classifying them as a distinct race of men (either "Reachmen" or "Forsworn"), since it seems like a better reflection of how they're depicted in the lore. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 05:13, 3 May 2013 (GMT)

While I get what you are saying, the fact that Borkul the Beast - an Orc, is also part of the group leads me to believe that members may not be restricted to native Bretons in the 4th Era. While I strongly believe game data is not a reliable source for lore, all forsworn enemies are indeed are Breton - so there is that. Additionally, you can also dismiss Borkul's membership as a mere bodyguard of Madanach. Maybe he is an exception to the rule.

Historically, I would say yes - the Reachmen were likely indeed a distinct race. The 4th Era Forsworn may be a different matter, we can't really be certain. --Jimeee (talk) 09:33, 3 May 2013 (GMT)

From what I remember I thought the Forsworm were described as a political group and a ethnicity. Might be remembering wrong.--Ashendant (talk) 10:45, 3 May 2013 (GMT)

Ice Tribes?

Anybody know what race is this? Lore:Ice Tribes--Ashendant (talk) 02:22, 4 May 2013 (GMT)