Lore talk:Septim Dynasty

Birth Dates

Hmm. Uriel Septim VI was born in 3E/285 and his son Pelagius was born in 3E/294! Wow... --FMan 17:29, 26 September 2006 (EDT)

According to People_P, Pelagius IV was born in 3E/314, which makes considerably more sense. Not sure where the graphic for this chart came from, but it seems to have some inconsistancies... --TheRealLurlock 17:48, 26 September 2006 (EDT)

The chart was created by myself. All information was gathered from official lore with the aid of members at The Imperial Library (where it may also be found), substituting the latest dates for those which conflict with older information (as is the custom in dealing with ES lore). If you have any disputes with the dates, kindly set them forth herein and I shall do my best to appease them. Thanks. -- Booyah boy 23:39, 26 September 2006 (EDT)

Well, I don't know where that other date came from, but I think it's a pretty safe assumption Uriel VI wasn't fathering children at the age of 9... I'd be inclined to take the 3E/314 date as more likely. --TheRealLurlock 00:44, 27 September 2006 (EDT)

Hahaha! Well, don't I feel foolish...

I looked over my markup version and quickly saw the problem: in adding the dates from the plain-text version to the stylized version (what I posted here) I typed in a blank for Eloisa's birth-date (his mother) and added such to Pelagius IV (and yes, it is 3E314, as noted in A Brief History of the Empire). Thanks for catching that one guys. I shall amend it immediately and post the revised version. -- Booyah boy 09:13, 27 September 2006 (EDT)

Done. -- Booyah boy 09:13, 27 September 2006 (EDT)

Calaxes

Are there any other references to Calaxes beside the passage in Words and Philosophy? If not, this reference is a rather disturbing inconsistency (or misprint), as "the date usually given was the 29th of Sun's Dusk 3E 498", while the events of Oblivion and Morrowind take place in 3E 433 and 427 respectively. -- Quill 21:02, 24 December 2007 (EST)

Formatting suggestion

I've just changed the Appendices header into an infobox on the right-side of the page, which I think will be a good change if we're going to be adding a bunch of these. Having it on top causes the content to be pushed lower and lower down for every new entry added. I considered making multiple columns, but decided moving it to the side was best. Only problem is what it does to this page. Since the entire contents is just a single image, if your browser is narrow, the image gets pushed down to below the infobox, which could become particuarly problematic the longer the appendices get. I've narrowed the box as much as I can without the entries wrapping lines. But my suggestion would be maybe to take the top of this chart and separate it out a bit. Make the family crest a separate graphic, take the paragraph of text on there and post it as actual text instead of part of the image, anything, just so that there isn't a blank white space to the left of the infobox. Alternatively, you could narrow the image somehow, but you'd have to find a way to do that which doesn't make the text un-readable. Or you could just write a new paragraph of text or two for the top of the article, so it's not just one picture. I'll leave it to you how best to deal with this. --TheRealLurlock 14:38, 28 September 2006 (EDT)

I'll fiddle around with it later tonight (say, in the next three or four hours). I'll set it up in a sandbox first and see what happens, then go from there. With luck, it will be resolved within the next day.

If need be, an alternate format could be made entirely, solely in plain-text or using less stylized fonts (to retain legibility at a smaller size). I'll see to that if modifying this image fails to pan out. Thanks for the note, Lurlock. -- Booyah boy 02:44, 29 September 2006 (EDT)

Alright, I went ahead and tried a few variations out in a sandbox (and I'm thoroughly sick of the preview button now), and eventually ended up with the current page. What do you think?

As you can see, I chopped out the text from the original and placed it in plain-text (per your suggestion), and added in a short blip about how the chart should be read. I also changed the background of the image to sheer white, as it looked rather odd with the parchment styling when bereft of the header/crest (at least, I thought so). -- Booyah boy 09:10, 29 September 2006 (EDT)

Gemile

Is Gemile a name or merely a descriptor of nationality or origin.

"That Chicago girl" rather than "That Emily girl."

Now that's the only information I could find about Martin's mother... Which is GREAT! :) Unless someone else found more about her, either in the "official" Lore of fan fiction texts (please let me know), I'll have the liberty to expand the lore over this "mystery". Check out for my next mod, Caves of Marvels... --HawkFest 03:03, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

Peer Review

I've put the Peer Review on this page because I would like some lore experts to take a look at the chart and make sure that a) I haven't messed it up in the transition from the graphic, and b) That it's correct anyway. I found one error on the original graphic - it suggested Uriel VI and Eloisa were married, which would be a bit odd for brother and sister. Some of the spelling may be off too, as I found it hard to distinguish between some letters on the graphic. The original can be seen [[:Image:SeptimLineageChart.png|here]]. As an aside, it seems there are quite a few people needing to be added to the Tamriel People pages. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 05:32, 28 March 2008 (EDT)

Another thing this page really needs is a list of the ruling emperors in the order they were in power, with the dates of their reigns included. That's another one I'll leave for the lore experts. I did bold-face all the ones that were ruling emperors, something I've often seen done on royal lineage charts. But the dates given here are for their lifespans, not their reigns, so that information should probably be added (as a separate chart, I'd think). --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 13:10, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

The Problem is by the ruling time that Bethesda don't even know by themselves when they die or rule. Ok what i mean...the best example is i think Antiochus I, son of Pelagius II. His birth the biographie of the wolfqueen (eriphanes) says 3Ä 71 the Wolfsqueen III (jarth) says 3Ä 56, great what you choose now? We on Tamriel-Almanach thought really long for an answer until we looked on the logical site. His younger sister is 3Ä 67 born, so 3Ä 56 should be the right date, but it isn't clear. The same with his date of death: Wolfsqueen Iv and book Pelagius madness (can't remember english titel correct, sry) says he dies 3Ä 119. Other sources say 3Ä 120. The book History of the empire I says the official date 3Ä 112. So tell me what should you believe? This is only on example, for the septim-dynasty who are such complex that Bethesda didn't know by themselves everything correct. The same is with the rule-times. If you want you can build up on our dates, we really tried to look on every site of lore and looked up in every damm book ^^ So i can help a little bit if you want, important is to work much with footnotes, so it's good that you upgraded here =) It makes really sense, at the beginning i thought: "we don't need it" but now it's a good help in most of our articles. So i think i does his work her too. But yeah you have to decide how you want to do it of course. --Deepfighter 15:20, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

When dates are uncertain, you just include both dates with a question-mark and maybe a link to a footnote. E.g. Wikipedia's list of Egyptian Pharaohs. It does occur to me that many of the dates listed on this chart may be questionable for the same reason, but I lack the time and the energy to go through them all and fix them. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 19:54, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

By the time i will have a look...--Deepfighter 04:03, 30 April 2008 (EDT)

(outdent) I originally put the ruling emperors / empresses in a different color but changed my mind when I saw how many of them there were! Doing it in bold is a good idea though. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 04:19, 30 April 2008 (EDT)

I added the succession chart - for sure it's not sure it's 100% accurate, I basically just copied the dates from the family tree chart, assuming that each emperor took power after their predecessor died. If there are any missing ones, or gaps where there was no emperor, or any whose reign ended in abdication or usurping instead of their death, the chart is probably wrong. And of course if any of the dates are questionable, they're wrong in both places. But I'll leave it to the lore-masters to clean up all that. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 17:10, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Martin

So martin was born and died in the same year? very strange he looked adult — Unsigned comment by 124.183.15.122 (talk) on 3 August 2008

That's not what the page says, if you read it more carefully. It says we don't know when he was born and that he died in 3E/433. If you're talking about the box at the top of the page, those are the regnal dates - when he was emperor. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 03:03, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

Mantiarco's Death

I've changed this from 3E98 to 3E100. The Wolf Queen, v4 says, in an entry dated 3E 109, "Nine years after the death of her husband, King Mantiarco..." and Biography of the Wolf Queen states "Mantiarco, King of Solitude, died the springtide after Pelagius II", and Pelagius' death is established elsewhere as 3E98. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 11:59, 13 September 2008 (EDT)

Magnus Septim and Friends

I read this article, but didn´t understand the chronology and the absences of some emperors. In which books was it based? Because it´s far different from "Brief History of the Empire". After Cephorus I, Magnus Septim was the new emperor (and Pelagius III, his son, was accused of patricide). The same can be said about Emperor Cassynder, who ruled from Katariah death until 3E 202. I suggest a full revision. — Unsigned comment by 189.106.178.150 (talk) on 24 September 2008

Take a look at the earlier comment. This was based on a previous graphic, and I'm not sure what the source for that was. I don't think a full review is necessary. All that was wrong is that Lurlock missed out a couple of rulers when he added] the list to the page. Thanks for pointing those out - I've added them in. If there's anything else - let me know. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 12:42, 24 September 2008 (EDT)

As I said before, this article needs a full revision, but although I´m not an expert I can help with some problems, based on "Brief History of the Empire":

1) Antiochus died in 3E 112 (not in 119) http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Antiochus#Antiochus .

2) Uriel III starts its reign in 3E 121.

3) Potem Septim can´t be in the list because Cephorus I started to rule in 3E 127. The Volume III and IV of the book say the Voluem II described 6 Emperors (Uriel III, Cephorus, Magnus, Pelagius III, Katariah and Cassynder).

4) I think Empress Katariah death is 3E 200 (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Katariah#Katariah). It´s said she reigned for 46 years and my guess is that it started at the end of 3E 153 and ended in the beginning of 3E 200.

5) In consequence of 4, Cassynder´s death would be 3E 202.

6) Uriel IV reigned for 43 years, so the dates are incorrect in this article and at http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Uriel_Septim_IV#Uriel_Septim_IV . It´s difficult for me to know because reading the link for Volume III in UESP I saw that Cephorus II started his reign in 3E 268 (which is an absurd) and I don´t have my game here in this moment to discover if the game´s book is also wrong (I´m in Brasil and my ps3 is in Hong Kong) (but 247 is absolutely wrong).

7) Eloisa birth is also wrong (294 her father was dead (290)). She is twin of Morihatha, but the year 285 would be wrong the same way because they were born months before Uriel V departure (288) so their real birth would be 3E 287 or 3E 288.

Anyway, I still think some expert, someone that really knows ES history, should review this article, specially about the chronology. And some references should be also included. I think that´s it and sorry for my english. (Rpeh, I still didn´t find the Dremora Bow...)

You're beginning to appreciate the problem. In the most obvious case, Brief History of the Empire is clearly wrong about Cephorus II's dates. It says he took the throne in 268 and then waged war as emperor in 249 before his son took the throne in 268. Other books also have dates that contradict passages in BHotE, which is why other UESP articles say different things. We could do with some consistency, but it's difficult given just how varied the sources are. Take a look at the other comments on this page and you'll get some idea of the problem. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 01:00, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

Cuhlecain a Septim?

I know he ruled before Tiber Spetim, but is he part of the Septim Dynasty or was he a Septim? 98.198.83.12 20:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

He was just a petty king of Cyrodiil who waged successful wars against his neighbors and had Talos as a general. No relation, but the Imperials still revere him. Temple-Zero 17:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary, the lore seems to imply that Cuhlecain sort of "adopted" Tiber as a member of his dynasty. This means that Cuhlecain was the founder of the Septim Dynasty, though he was not related to Talos. I may be wrong, and I'm probably way late to get a response but I just figured I'd give my input. Auri-El Reborn 23:01, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Not really. Whether or not it really happened, Talos' adoption as Cuhlecain's heir doesn't have any bearing on the latter's membership of the dynasty. The first "Septim" was Tiber - and there's no doubting that. For a real-world example, see the Swedish House of Bernadotte, which stems from the time a childless king of Sweden adopted a marshal of Napoleon's army. The preceding king isn't considered part of the subsequent House, and with good reason. rpeh •T•C•E• 23:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

A player?

Uriel had two illigitimate sons? martin and Calaxes? Am I reading it wrong or what? This is not the impression I got of the old man when I met him, looks like he was a bit of a player ;) — Unsigned comment by Zefiewings (talk • contribs) on 26 May 2010

Read Words and Philosophy for more. rpeh •T•C•E• 04:43, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Diagramm Septim-Dynasty

hej guys, made for the Tamriel-Almanach a diagramm about the septim-dynasty, like you had before here in the article - LINK. If you want I could easily change that for english speaking users - just if you want - if not - no problem. You have already a good overview but could be that you also want a picture in addition...wish you just the best UESP - think still about some cooperation projects in the near future :) We will see! --Deepfighter 12:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, but we deliberately moved away from using images for this kind of thing so they could be more-easily edited and incorporate things like links and footnotes. I hope our diagram was of use when you were making your picture! rpeh •T•C•E• 13:14, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

indeed - your table was for the style of the image very helpful - though we found some over dates for some particular Septim's. But that are all things about interpretation. How I say - keep up the good work! --Deepfighter 06:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

The only difference I can see is for Antiochus' year of birth, and I'm sticking to my original figures :) rpeh •T•C•E• 07:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Do they Really have the Dragonblood in them?

The Answer is no they use the Amulet to gain their powers why do you think the Mythic Dawn needed the Amulet, to Open the Portal to Paradise. The Amulet has the Dragonblood and it Provides the Powers that the Septim's had!

Not the End of the Bloodline

I just wanted to point out that, as far as we know, Andorak Septim's descendants still rule over the city of Shornhelm is High Rock; therefore, though they are not "true Septims" neither was Katariah Ra'Athim, yet she is treated as such. Whether or not Bethesda "knows" something we don't, they overlooked it, or simply didn't want to complicate things is up for debate, but I just thought I'd share that here; also, as a reference for this info, see the Shornhelm link or BHotE Part III.--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 00:54, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

There's possibly even more to it than that. Cephorus Septim II was chosen because he was "a cousin more closely related to the original Septim line", but as I remark in the relevant note: "his precise line of descent is not clear". That was my way of subtly asking "Where in the hell did Bethesda pull this guy from???" That page contains all the children referred to anywhere in the literature, so I don't see where they got some new cousin from, unless the mixup over Tiber's children is being used. If they've done it once they can easily do it again. Plus you're right about Andorak. rpeh •T•C•E• 07:44, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

You Know it strikes me that Martin might not be the last of that line ether.. It is hinted (blatantly) that he was a Daedra follower and most likely not a abstinent one, So like his old man he might have one or two kids he never knew about too lol. Though this might be a story loophole Beth can use for a later game =P 174.252.36.78 10:05, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

The Iliac Septims

According to The Daggerfall Chronicles, many of the big players in the Iliac Bay are descendent of Tiber Septim. The full list being Gortwog, King Eadwyre, Queen Akorithi, the King of Worms, King Gothryd, the Underking and, of course, Uriel VII. The quest article on the wiki about this (Daggerfall:Who Gets the Totem) says that they are simply of royal blood, and not necessarily Septim. This is likely just Wartow picking up the wrong idea. For one, Mannimarco was likely born some time around the end of the First Era, Talos being somewhere in the late Second. This might be interpreted as Mannimarco being an ancestor of the Septims, rather than a descendant. The Underking is also confusing. I don't understand the lore behind the name myself, but for simplicity's sake let's call the Underking from Daggerfall Zurin Arctus. Does this mean the Battlemage was of some relation to General Talos? (Again ignoring the whole oversoul nonsense.)

Sorry about the rambling, but the Chronicles are an official source, if perhaps mistaken. For anyone who is interested, this information is on page 206. Should this information be considered? Can the actual in-game quote from the Totem be found to help clarify? Legoless 00:39, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Chart

Hello!

A simple question: Which program was used to make the Septim Family Chart?

~Apophis2412 — Unsigned comment by 195.241.210.57 (talk) on 7 October 2011

Just the {{Chart}} template. rpeh •T•C•E• 16:45, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Out of Date Chart?

This was brought up by and IRC member (albeit in a rude and unhelpful manner), and i'd like to ask if anyone knows what exactly is out (if anything) and what needs adding. I've used {{Chart}} in the past so I can make the edits... but I don't have the foggiest clue what the figures/details are that might need adding. I'm mainly asking to save me reading *every* book on the site to find the information! --kiz ^talk_email 15:24, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Uriel "Descendent of Tiber Septim"?

One of Oblivion's loading screens states that "Uriel Septim is a direct descendent of Tiber Septim", whereas Tiber Septim's direct bloodline ended with Pelagius I. Is this simply an oversight? Norowane (talk) 21:48, 14 November 2012 (GMT)

Yes, the loading screen is incorrect. —Legoless (talk) 22:20, 14 November 2012 (GMT)

Chart not clear about Pelagius II

I probably read too much Song of Ice and Fire but, the way the chart is structured make it look like Pelagius II is son of Amiel and Galana insted of being their brother. — Unsigned comment by 82.233.96.157 (talk) at 10:16 on 12 October 2013

Children are indicated by lines coming from the side of the box and leading down; the lines linking Pelagius II, Amiel, and Galana all come connect to the top of their box. The placement is slightly awkward, but the lines are more important. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 13:26, 12 October 2013 (GMT)

Who was prince Camarill

Could someone please answer that question alot of people say hes from the septim dynasty thats why im here — Unsigned comment by 24.156.244.149 (talk) at 18:03 on 7 November 2015‎

Is there any context in which that name appears? that may make it easier to find out who prince camarill was. -- SarthesArai ^Talk 18:56, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Calaxes Septim's Date of Death

The date and footnote on Calaxes Septim is, I think, obviously wrong. I'll c&p the post I made to r/teslore to explain why I'm making the changes.

Calaxes is only mentioned in one text, [Words and Philosophy](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Words_and_Philosophy), published in Morrowind. But it's a very striking story. He was the bastard son of Uriel VII, rumoured to have been killed by his father's command. Here's all that exists on Calaxes, from a series of interviews with Lady Allena Benoch, the Bosmer commander of Uriel's Imperial Guard.

>The only story I asked her that she would neither admit nor refute was the one about Calaxes, the Emperor's bastard. When I brought up the name, she shrugged, professing no knowledge of the affair. I pressed on with the details of the story. Calaxes, though not in line for succession, had been given the Archbishopric of The One: a powerful position in the Imperial City, and indeed over all Tamriel where that religion is honored. Whispering began immediately that Calaxes believed that the Gods were angered with the secular governments of Tamriel and the Emperor specifically. It was even said that Calaxes advocated full-scale rebellion to establish a theocracy over the Empire.

>It is certainly true, I pressed on, that the Emperor's relationship with Calaxes had become very stormy, and that legislation had been passed to limit the Church's authority. That is, up until the moment when Calaxes disappeared, suddenly, without notice to his closest of friends. Many said that Lady Benoch and the Imperial Guard assassinated the Archbishop Calaxes in the sacristy of his church -- the date usually given was the 29th of Sun's Dusk 3E 498 [sic].

>"Of course," responds Lady Benoch with one of her mysterious grins. "I don't need to tell you that the Imperial Guard's position is as protectors of the throne, not assassins."

>"But surely, no one is more trusted that [sic] the Guard for such a sensitive operation," I say, carefully.

>Lady Benoch acknowledges that, but merely says that such details of her duties must remain secret as a matter of Imperial security.

A great story, but the date is a problem. 3E 498 *never happened*. Uriel's death and the Oblivion Crisis kicked off in 3E 433. Furthermore, the book was published in Morrowind, meaning it happened before 3E 427.

So leaving aside possible Time Hijinks (always a vague possibility in TES lore, to be honest), the assumption is that 3E 498 is a typo. UESP has Calaxes' death down as happening in 3E 398 on its big timeline. That would mean that Calaxes was *not* murdered by Uriel, since 398 is the second last year of the Imperial Simulacrum, during which Uriel had been replaced by the impostor Jagar Tharn.

But that *can't be right either*. Assuming the writers meant 3E 398 is an easy answer, but it doesn't fit with the source at all. Calaxes' murder is related in the context of the life of Lady Allena Benoch, and the dates given for *her life* in the same text are much more reliable and don't allow for such an early date for Calaxes' death.

So, for example, Allena Benoch was a sixteen-year-old in Valenwood during the War of the Blue Divide in 3E 396.

>Lady Benoch is a Bosmer, a Wood Elf, and like her ancestors, took to the bow in her early years. She excelled at the sport, and by the age of fourteen, she had joined the hunting party of her tribe as a Jaqspur, a long distance shooter. During the black year of 396, when the Parikh tribe began their rampage through southeastern Valenwood with the aid of powers from the Summurset Isle, Lady Benoch fought the futile battle to keep her tribe's land.

>"I killed someone for the first time when I was sixteen," she says now. "I don't remember it very well -- he or she was just a blur on the horizon where I aimed my bow. It meant no more to me than shooting animals. I probably killed a hundred people like that during that summer and fall. I didn't really feel like a killer until that wintertide, when I learned what it was like to look into a man's eyes as you spilled his blood.

Calaxes' murder can't have happened two years later in 3E 398. It happened when Lady Benoch was Head of the Imperial Guard. "Words and Philosophy" details how Lady Benoch spent *years* training in Hammerfell, becoming the Head of the Valenwood Fighters' Guild, running the Guild there for two years, serving as a bodyguard for royalty in the Iliac Bay, and then at last being recruited to the Imperial Guard. Calaxes' death happens late in her career when she has reached the very top.

And, leaving aside the dates and Benoch, the text doesn't allow the interpretation that it was Jagar Tharn who had Calaxes killed. It's published late in the Third Era, long after the Simulacrum, when Jagar Tharn's illusion is already well known. It would not attribute Calaxes' death to Uriel if it was the work of Tharn.

So, when was Calaxes murdered/disappeared? I don't think there's much to say, other than it was many years after the War of the Blue Divide, for Lady Benoch to have reached her position, and before the events in Morrowind.

75.155.110.115 09:21, 10 June 2020 (UTC) - Niente de Nada

Ariella Septim

Oi, my girl Ariella Septim from the French Arena Manual isn't mentioned at all here. I'd add it myself, but the formatting for this page is complex.

Now if people want to get into if she should she be listed at all, here's my short rebuttal, the French Manual provides brand new fitting context to the story, and even gets its events referenced in the English Manual. I think it's worth noting on lore pages. I'll go into more depth if people wanna uesperson this, but I hope to not. Username-72 (talk) 02:10, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned she should get a page. The french manual is official content, and Uriel has some kids (cough Calaxes) that don't get mentioned more than once. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 02:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree with this addition and would like to see an independent page for Ariellla some point as well and agree with using the French manual as a source, which I also did on the Tiber Septim page. Dcking20 (talk) 01:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Additional Entries

I'm not even going to try to edit this table, I don't understand it at all. But there are a few missing (unnamed) people on here that I'll jot down in case someone who can add them sees this. There are more, but I'm only going to list the ones whose existence is undisputed.

• Uriel V had at least one bastard son per Brief History of the Empire v 4
• Pelagius III had at least two brothers and one sister other than Jolethe per The Madness of Pelagius
• Antiochus had at least one child other than Kintyra II per Biography of the Wolf Queen
• Pelagius I had at least two children who later died per Brief History of the Empire v 1 and The Real Barenziah (Daggerfall)
• Morihatha had at least one child who later died per Brief History of the Empire v 4 Mindtrait0r (talk) 22:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)