Lore talk:Thu'um

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"nords and some others?"[edit]

Is there any evidence of a non-nord using Thu'um? With the exception of the player character if he or she chooses not to be a nord, of course. Wonklad (talk) 20:01, 20 November 2012 (GMT)

That should be enough. But there are also dragons. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 20:05, 20 November 2012 (GMT)
Well, there's this vague reference from Children of the Sky
"The power of a Nord can be articulated into a shout, like the kiai of an Akaviri swordsman."
I doesn't say this Akaviri ability is literally the same ability as the Thu'um but that they are similar. We learn in Skyrim that the Akaviri had many tactics for bringing down Dragons including special prayers. It's plausible that the Kiai ability mentioned here in relation to the Voice could be a related type of verbal magic, especially considering the history of Dragons in Akavir. (Pilaf The Defiler) 64.253.223.247 0:07 11/25/2012
There's also the Ebony Warrior. A Redguard who uses dragon shouts. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 00:03, 12 December 2012 (GMT)

Merger Proposal[edit]

I don't support the merger, as I believe the thu'um and the Way of the Voice are sufficiently distinct concepts, and there's more than enough information on each to support separate pages. One is a magical power, the other is a philosophy involving the use of that power. Related, but distinct concepts. It's similar to the distinction between general sword-fighting and the Ansei. The solution to the concerns that I assume prompted this proposal is for each page to properly focus and discuss its scope. The thu'um page, in particular, could be more comprehensive, and it seems to be the one infringing a bit into the Way of the Voice's sphere. I set up the bulk of it just as a placeholder about nine months ago; it doesn't need merging, only improving. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 19:45, 6 April 2013 (GMT)

I agree, the Way of the Voice is a philosophy held by a select number of "human" Thu'um users. Ulfric Stormcloak clearly doesn't follow that philosophy, nor the Ebony Warrior, or even the Dragons. They are distinct concepts. Necromancy and Conjuration is another example of concepts that are very similar, yet very different. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:37, 6 April 2013 (GMT)

Wulfharth[edit]

I don't personally believe Wulfharth is best put under the Dragonborn category. While some are here for sure, such as Tiber Septim and Reman Cyrodiil, Wulfharth has no confirmed sources naming him a Dragonborn. Our only source is unreliable.

In contrast, there are references to Wulfharth being an immortal empowered by Lorkhan/Shor. An immortal king. Part of the description thought of being a Shezarrine. YsmirKingbreaker (talk) 20:59, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

The deity who a Dragonborn is associated with has little baring on anything. Miraak is most heavily associated with Herma Mora but that doesn’t make him not Dragonborn. Just because Akatosh confers the blessing doesn’t mean the association will be ongoing beyond that. Yes Wulfharth is associated with Shor and Kyne but this doesn’t conflict with Balgruffs claim. And we certainly can’t just assume he is a tongue when no sources, reliable or not claim him as such. Dcking20 (talk) 21:32, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
The issue with the Dragonborn source though is that the book sources tie his power to Lorkhan. Calling him a Dragonborn conflicts with those sources. While I understand that it's the only source that gives him a title, it also impacts his overall character. Pelinal had power like he had a Shehai, but he wasn't a sword singer for example.
The argument about no source calling him a tongue is also pointless. Tongues are mortals that can use the Thu'um. Children of the Sky notes that the most powerful warriors can use the Thu'um and are called this. So all Dragonborn are Tongues, but not all Tongues are Dragonborn. This just leaves an unreliable source, and the only source at that, calling Wulfharth a Dragonborn being treated as fact. YsmirKingbreaker (talk) 21:48, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
I'd also like to point out this was reverted because of that when the page also has the point that anyone that can harness the Thu'um is a Tongue. YsmirKingbreaker (talk) 21:53, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
It's kinda absurd to say that the source calling Wulfharth a dragonborn is unreliable, when it's stated matter-of-factly when we're introduced to the concept of being a dragonborn. It's not presented as Balgruufs theory in-universe, and it would be wild for a Jarl of Skyrim to have the agreed-upon mythos of Skyrim that wrong. Also, importantly, literally nothing contradicts it ever. Jacksol (talk) 23:02, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
I must admit at first I was a little confused over what this was I thought it was like, hey we are saying he is Dragonborn when he isn't listed as such but its the other way around. I do understand that there are those that are passionate about this, type of thing, but like everyone else here, we do have a source and a good one at that. Jacksol is correct that its very unlikely a Jarl would get their known mythos wrong. A lot of the times, canon stuff only really needs one source or a reference. I have to agree with, Dcking20 and Jacksol overall on this. Wulfharth is Dragonborn, and he is mentioned as being such canonically, not only that, but a title that every known Nordic type of Dragonborn has been given applies to him the title Ysmir and that backs it up as well. Strengthening what the Jarl said and I do consider it additional proof of him being a Dragonborn.
Now there is some interesting lore about Nerevar and Vivec potentially stripping him of his ability to use the Thu'um. But then given Vivecs power, as a Demigod type of being himself and using the Heart of Lorkhan its likely possible, Wulfharth was cut off from using the Thu'um and wasn't able to do it when Tiber Septim, came along. Then Tiber himself lost the ability to do the Thu'um after getting his throat cut. So basically the Thu'um is something that any known user can lose direct access to given the right circumstances and can explain possible discrepancies if there is no known Thu'um use by Wulfharth during the time of Tiber.TheVampKnight (talk) 23:41, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Potema[edit]

I think we should include sources next to the names within the "confirmed Thu'um users" and "confirmed Dragonborn" lists, specifically sources that prove "this person can use the thu'um" or "this person is Dragonborn". Potema is the granddaughter of Tiber Septim's brother's daughter, but I can't recall a single instance of her using the Voice. -MolagBallet (talk) 03:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

From her Skyrim page  :Aside from her ghost ability, she knows the following spells: Lightning Bolt, Lightning Cloak, Sparks, Lesser Ward, Reanimate Corpse, and Conjure Storm Atronach. Additionally, she knows the Unrelenting Force shout. Dcking20 (talk) 20:49, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Potema given she has an ability to do it, from Skyrims gameplay. Means that she for sure should continue to be listed.TheVampKnight (talk) 23:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Ysgramor[edit]

Ysgramor was not a Thu'um user. Another editor claims the Five Songs of King Wulfharth as a source as to his ability to use the Voice, but the exact line is:

"This worked until Ysgramor Shouted Some Sense and the Nords fought back again."

This does not mean that he was able to use the Voice. It means he shouted, as in speaking very loudly. There is no reason to believe this is in reference to the Thu'um based on context and exactly zero evidence in any other location as to any ability on his part to use the Thu'um Eisotopius (talk) 03:34, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Five Songs as a source sometimes conflicts and this is a good example. Ysgramor can't have been a Tongue for the simple fact that Parthy taught the Voice to the Nords during the Dragon War, which happened many years after the life of Ysgramor. There is no evidence he was a Tongue so I'd say you are right. The only exception of a pre-Dragon War Tongue is Miraak by virtue of him being a Dragonborn, and even then Miraak was a contemporary of the Nord Heroes, so he lived during war. I have no idea why Vahlok the Jailor or Zaan the Scalecaller are listed and these should be removed too. The listed Nordic "demon chieftains" needs better explanations. --Jimeee (talk) 09:00, 17 September 2021 (UTC)