Morrowind talk:Non-Relevant NPCs

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[edit] Zainab Camp Non-Relevant NPCs

Please remove these, as killing any Zainab will make you unable to complete the Main Quest. See "Zainab Nerevarine" for why. --Narfblat 21:12, 2 March 2007 (EST)

[edit] What is Relevant?

In the interests of completing this section of the site, I've decided to draw up some official criteria for what defines an NPC as "Relevant", as it's been a pretty grey area until now. There are already a number of NPC pages for characters which really should not be considered relevant. The following list should help clear things up a bit. An NPC may be considered relevant if:

  1. They provide a service. Any kind of service whatsoever. Merchants, trainers, repairs, travel, enchanting, etc. This includes NPCs who are hostile and only provide a service if you Calm them first.
  2. They are related to a quest. This does NOT include all hostile NPCs you will encounter in a location where you've been sent on a quest. These are only counted if it is required that you interact with these NPCs in order to complete the quest. (E.g.: The quest sends you out to kill them.) If you could complete the quest by running or sneaking past them, they are not relevant. However, if they are carrying an item you need for a quest, they are relevant, even though you might avoid killing them by picking their pockets instead. Note that the NPC should be involved in the quest on an individual basis, rather than as part of a group. Thus, if a quest says "Kill 12 Berne Vampires", or "Free 30 slaves", this does not mean that all Berne Vampires and slaves can be automatically considered relevant, though of course, some are.
  3. They have unique dialogue. If an NPC will give you any information, no matter how mundane, that cannot be anywhere else, they are relevant.
  4. They are mentioned by name in dialogue or in books. Very few NPCs will meet this qualification without falling into one of the above groups as well, but there may be some.
  5. They are unique in some other way. This may even include NPCs who are found already long dead - though only named ones.

NPCs may not be considered relevant if they do not have a unique name. This mostly only applies to guards, sleepers, and the occasional anonymous corpse. Any NPC or group of NPCs which is found in multiple instances and can respawn if killed should be assumed to be non-relevant. These may be discussed on a Generic NPCs page at some point in the future. Hopefully setting this down as some sort of semi-official policy will prevent the creation of thousands of unnecessary pages. (There's over 4000 NPCs in Morrowind including the expansions, so we're not going to do like we did with Oblivion and create a page for every single one of them... Feel free to comment if you have any thoughts on this matter. --TheRealLurlock Talk 20:17, 23 September 2007 (EDT)

Going through NPCs who currently have pages, there were a handful for whom it was not immediately apparent why they are considered to be relevant. Specifically:
In some cases it's just that the pages haven't been filled in and I don't know whether there are related quests. In other cases, the pages state that the characters have no relevance, making me wonder why the page actually exists.
Finally, I noticed a few NPCs who need a NPC summary, and thought I might as well make note of here while I'm at it:
--NepheleTalk 20:44, 22 October 2007 (EDT)
Well, I can clear up a few of these at least:
As for the dead people, I don't know, probably not really important, except to fill out the Morrowind-Dead NPCs category, though they could just as easily do that with my Non-Relevant NPC template and a redirect. Haven't gotten around to setting that stuff up yet, though. --TheRealLurlock Talk 17:06, 23 October 2007 (EDT)
Just to clarify, Diradeni Farano has unique dialogue under "join the Royal Guard," which technically qualifies her for a page. --Eshetalk17:30, 23 October 2007 (EDT)
Well, all of the guards have unique dialogue under that topic, and as far as I can tell only that topic. Question is - does having a small amount of unique, barely quest-related dialogue qualify an NPC as relevant? You don't have to talk to any of the guards except Aleri Aren and Ivulen Irano to complete this quest, the rest just provide a little bit of color. Though I'm starting to consider whether faction membership alone might be enough to qualify. I'm reluctant to do so, mainly because of the number of un-interesting people in the three Great Houses. But for most of the other factions, the vast majority of the members are unquestionably relevant in some way or another. --TheRealLurlock Talk 00:26, 24 October 2007 (EDT)
Well, when I first did the Tribunal NPC pages, Diradeni Faranon ended up on the Non-Relevant page, and I feel that she should stay there. --Ratwar 00:40, 24 October 2007 (EDT)
Morrowind:Calvario is certainly relevant. You have to kill him for the Zainab Nerevarine quest.--Gaebrial 02:26, 24 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Longterm Plans for Page

I was wondering whether the plan longterm is to keep this page, or to move all of the contents to the relevant place pages. It seems to me that it makes more sense to provide tables like this about the non-relevant NPCs on the place page (and some places already do have similar tables, e.g. Morrowind:Tusenend). My main reason for asking is that it would be good to get NepheleBot to set up redirects for all of these NPCs (and doing so would prevent these NPC pages from getting created by over-zealous editors). The redirects should point to the page with the most info about the NPCs, but it also seems like it would be more useful to have the redirects take readers to the place pages: if they're interested in that NPC, they're likely interested in the place, but they're not too likely to be interested in a list of every other non-relevant NPC in the game. If there is a need to have a listing of the non-relevant NPCs, NepheleBot can just add some categories to the redirect pages.

Also, I was wondering about the info listed in the tables. First, should faction and rank description be listed as two separate table columns, especially given the new Template:Faction template? Second, should info like level, health, and magicka (perhaps also alarm and fight) be added to the tables? Especially if many of these NPCs are enemy NPCs it seems that level and health are pretty important information that readers will want to find. I can dump out a new set of tables for this page pretty easily with any set of statistics; while I'm at it, I can turn any desired entries into links (e.g., race, class). --NepheleTalk 23:26, 21 October 2007 (EDT)

I posted a similar question at UESPWiki talk:Morrowind Redesign Project#NPC List on Location Pages a few days ago. Nephele and I share the same idea, which is to move the content of this page to the place pages. I would also be in favor of adding some more info to the tables (like e.g. health and level). --DrPhoton 03:01, 22 October 2007 (EDT)
I've changed the format of two sections (Morrowind:Non-Relevant NPCs#Aharnabi Non-Relevant NPCs, Morrowind:Non-Relevant NPCs#Zainab Camp Non-Relevant NPCs) to demonstrate one possible option for the layout of the new tables. And since I'm thinking these tables really belong on the place pages, I've also copied the tables over to Aharnabi and Zainab Camp. I've added a few columns of info (level, health, magicka, alarm, fight) and updated the factions column. I've also included the relevant NPCs for the area, with the idea that this is really a table for the places page, and therefore should provide a list of all the NPCs. The relevant NPCs are italicized and linked to make them stand out.
I've got tables like this setup with (hopefully) all of the named non-test NPCs in Morrowind, Tribunal, and Bloodmoon. One problem is that there are a fair number of NPCs whose locations are (to me) unknown (30-odd Morrowind NPCs, all Bloodmoon NPCs, all Tribunal NPCs). Also, it would probably be good to have someone more knowledgeable about the game do the work of incorporating this info into the various place pages. Finally, the data is 420 kB in size, so it can't really all be posted at once. So I'd suggest starting by taking the places already listed on this page, and post updated data for those places, then let someone else volunteer to move the data. Once that set's done, I'll post another chunk, etc. Assuming that anyone else thinks this is worth doing ;) --NepheleTalk 20:12, 22 October 2007 (EDT)
No objections so far, it's been nearly a week, and I've noticed Gaebrial starting to add tables using the new format to the place pages.... So I went ahead and updated most of the page with new tables. I skipped the big places, in part to not bloat the page too much and in part because I'm not sure whether we'll want a similar style of list with every single NPC all in one table. Once NepheleBot has some free time, I'll also start creating redirects for NPCs who have been moved to help keep track (somewhat) of the chaos. --NepheleTalk 21:34, 28 October 2007 (EDT)
I must say I'm happy with the new format. Now that it's official, it should be mentioned in UESPWiki:Morrowind Redesign Project to make sure everybody in the project knows about it. There may also be some more feedback from there... --DrPhoton 04:33, 29 October 2007 (EDT)
Oh-oh, I've been found out. I thought I'd use the new tables on the place pages I modified to see if anybody noticed/objected. On some pages (e.g. Shushishi) I have also been using the Male&M and Female&F templates, rather than 'M' or 'F'. What is the consensus on these? --Gaebrial 04:57, 29 October 2007 (EDT)
The only problem I've found with the Male&M and Female&F templates is that if they're used on a sortable table, they don't sort. No idea how to fix that, if it's even possible. Just for comparison, see:
Name Letter Icon
Pat F Male&M
Jesse M Female&F
Kris M Female&F
Jordan F Female&F
Alex M Male&M
--TheRealLurlock Talk 09:26, 29 October 2007 (EDT)
OK, so that didn't work. I checked MediaWiki, found a potential solution, and modified the templates accordingly, only for it to completely wreck the formatting. Oops.
Anyway, the table above is now sortable on the Icon column, but only because I have 'cheated' somewhat. Is it possible to add a 'sort key' to the template without screwing up the formatting, or are people indifferent/hostile to the icons being used & therefore it's not worth bothering with? --Gaebrial 10:04, 29 October 2007 (EDT)
Okay, I've solved the problem by making a second pair of templates to be used in tables. So now when you use them in a sortable table, you just need to add a 't' - {{Mt}} and {{Ft}}. (Umm... hopefully we won't need templates for "Mountain" or "Fort"...) --TheRealLurlock Talk 10:51, 29 October 2007 (EDT)
That works for me. Unless anybody else can come up with a way of getting the original templates to work. --Gaebrial 12:27, 29 October 2007 (EDT)
Unfortunately, that's a problem I've run across before with <span> tags - they don't always like to play nicely with in-line text, particularly when there's images involved. There may be a better way around this, but I'm not savvy enough with CSS to figure it out... --TheRealLurlock Talk 12:44, 29 October 2007 (EDT)
Personally, I prefer the 'M' and 'F' tags to the icons. However, if you still want to go ahead with them, I would make them less bright, more pastel, so that they don't stand out so much. BTW, why don't you try with a <div> instead of a <span> tag; it should behave better with images. --DrPhoton 04:29, 30 October 2007 (EDT)
Better? I left the in-line ones alone for now for comparison. I'm leaving the original images up, though, since they're also used in the Male and Female Userboxes, and a pastel version might kind of disappear on those. Haven't tried seeing what happens with <div> - I'll let people more comfortable with CSS fool around with that. --TheRealLurlock Talk 12:23, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
Incidentally, just found another way to make them work without needing 2 templates. Now, you can just add a parameter to the template to make it sortable. So: {{M|t}} for sortable tables and {{M}} everywhere else. --TheRealLurlock Talk 11:08, 3 November 2007 (EDT)
Okay, screw it, I tried DrPhoton's suggestion, and now it works with only one template, no complicated parameters or anything. Forget all about {{Mt}} and {{M|t}}. Just {{M}} now works in all cases. --TheRealLurlock Talk 19:44, 3 November 2007 (EDT)

I find a simple "M" and "F" easier to understand than the icons, and I'm not aware of any advantages provided by the icons (they take up the same amount of space, they make the page larger and take longer to download, etc). I thought I'd already said that somewhere in this discussion, but apparently not.

Also I just wanted to clarify that I already have a file sitting on my hard drive containing tables for every single NPC in the game, all sorted into tables based upon NPC location. My plan is to post all of that data on the wiki so that it can be used as the source for all the NPC tables. It seemed to me that creating the data automatically was easier on everyone than having editors manually create each of these tables. It's also less prone to errors (at least as far as basic statistics are concerned) and it's easier to have a consistent format. The primary reason that I haven't posted it all so far is that posting it all at once on a single page is basically not possible, given that it's 420 kB of data. It also seems like sorting out some of the remaining format questions first would make sense.

What I had proposed was that editors could move the data off of this page place by place, and add completed places to the list at the top of the page. Once some data has been moved off the pages, I'd add more. If someone has a better idea on how to post the data, I'd be happy to hear it. Having gone to the trouble of creating all this data, I'd rather not have to then also spend time updating manually created tables in order to add formatting like linkable entries, that are critical parts of these tables (at least if redirects are then going to be added for the non-relevant NPCs). --NepheleTalk 13:34, 1 November 2007 (EDT)

Whoops, wish I'd seen this before I started changing all the pages. Some alterations I've made - I've been making the charts sortable. This means that the colspan'ing sub-headers have had to be removed, as they don't play nicely with sortable tables. Fortunately, these headers are sort of made redundant by sortable tables anyhow, since you can just sort by location to easily split the inside/outside NPCs, or by class for the Bandits/Slaves sort of thing, so they shouldn't really be necessary. I've also been sorting the NPCs alphabetically instead of by location by default, as it just feels more natural that way. (And you can sort any way you want with sortable tables, so it doesn't really matter.) Other than that, I've also been removing empty columns. For instance, if nobody in a given location belongs to any faction, then having a "Faction" column is just a waste of space. Likewise if there are no "Notes" or if there's only one cell and everyone is in it, there's no need for a "Location" column. The only other point where we may differ is the use of M/F vs Male&M/Female&F. This might be worth putting to a vote to see if the community has a preference either way... --TheRealLurlock Talk 14:39, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
I've been in a mood for mindless cut and paste over the last day. I also noticed that a good number of pages already have NPC lists, just in various previous formats. So I went ahead and updated the NPC lists on all place pages that already had lists. And now I've updated this page to contain a new set of data. As I mentioned before, I think it would be best if someone who has played more than 10 minutes of Morrowind (i.e., not me) transferred these tables to the place pages so that the data gets checked. I scavenged various random sandbox lists to get the locations used to put this page together, and I have no idea whether the source data is 100% reliable. --NepheleTalk 02:16, 4 November 2007 (EST)
One more complication with all of this is what to do in the many cases where a page exists just for the people table, and then that page is transcluded into an assortment of different lists. I actually happened to already do one such case and in the process messed up some pages: for Zainab Camp the people list comes from the page Zainab Camp People. Updating the people list there has messed up the layout at Ashlander Camp People. And it's a big problem with the cities: all the Vivec people are on pages such as Vivec Arena People which then get transcluded onto pages such as Vivec People and City People.
What I'm thinking of doing is leaving the various "... People" pages as is: keep them as tables containing just the names of people. I think the compilations such as City People are already overwhelming enough with just a list of names, and there's no reason to try to also stuff extra details such as factions and health onto big compilation pages. The more detailed people tables will then be done separately and will only be shown on the actual place page. For example:
Unless anyone sees any problem with this layout, I'll proceed to do this for the various city and camp people, using the existing "... People" pages to validate the lists I've dumped onto the Non-Relevant NPC pages. I'd like to start on this fairly soon: moving forward with this will then make it possible to create a large number of new non-relevant NPC redirect pages and hopefully reduce some of the potential for confusion with all these pages. --NepheleTalk 21:10, 19 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] Ranes Ienith - O Brother Where Art Thou?

He's listed on the Dren Plantation page. Not that he actually starts there - he starts 'nowhere' - but that information can be added to his NPC page when it gets created. Anyway, I've removed him from this page. --Gaebrial 09:43, 29 January 2008 (EST)

Aha, so he is ;) Thanks, Gaebrial! --NepheleTalk 10:29, 29 January 2008 (EST)
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