Oblivion:Gripes/AI

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This article provides AI gripes, as part of the Other section of the Gripes article.

Enemies will chase you relentlessly, regardless of the futility of it.

most enemies, are stupid, mindless, territorial creatures. so expect that.

Conversely, allies will attack enemies regardless of the situation and their current health. The hardest part of The Battle for Castle Kvatch is the tendency of the soldiers and guards to rush headlong into unfavorable odds, and continue to attack without taking even the barest breather to recover (especially Berich Inian, as he runs ahead of you constantly toward the goal). They have no fight-or-flight instinct, nor do they heal themselves unless they're mages. It's a blow to both realism and player morale when your NPC allies won't stop throwing themselves onto the enemy's swords, teeth and claws.

Often the conversation doesn't match the circumstances. I think of the time someone told me the rumour "Do you believe the rumour of the oblivion gates opening up all over the place..." while standing in front of an oblivion gate. Or the time during a fight with guards and monsters I have a pleasant time exchanging conversation with an NPC who had just been hit by a monster.

Or when you rescue the artist from the painting, he thanks you profusely, gives you a magic apron, his wife says "Enjoy the hospitality of our home", and then he says "You have entered a restricted zone. Please leave, NOW!"

I got the same treatment from Drad during the shrine quest

Some NPCs seem too brave and take on faded wraiths with their fists. Standard townspeople should perhaps have a "Panic mode" where they run into safe places where monsters cannot go.

I've done a sneak attack on a Goblin Chef, only to have him freak out and run away instead of attacking me. He was armed with nothing, so obviously wouldn't put up much of a fight anyway. The only problem I had with that was after a while he didn't alert the rest of the Goblins of his getting an arrow out of freakin nowhere. I don't know about anything else, though.

They have a flee mode where they run around aimlessly. They just don't use it often, especially when it would do them some good.

NPCs do not have any reaction time after they "spot" the enemy, but sometimes have a very poor ability to spot the enemy. If you have allies, they will often have more initiative than you in finding and attacking the enemy: unless they can't spot them, in which case they will just hang out and get stuck with arrows.

In a way it's kind of a binary switch: either they "spot" the enemy, and have a fast reaction time and a very fast way to find the enemy, or the don't, and are clueless. In reality people have a more nuanced continium between "Target Aquired" and "What's happening? I'm confused". I suggest several cases: 1) Attacked by unseen enemies, so characters will seek cover, run, or hunt, 2) Attacked by seen enemies, characters will hesitate between .1-.2 and 2 seconds (depending on ability, these numbers are based on human reaction times: reflex times are between .1 and .2 seconds and conscious choices are between 1 and 2 seconds) and then attack the enemy, 3) Attacked by sort-of-seen enemies, characters will hesitate a little longer, looking for the opponent, and then attack. 4) Attacked at close range by previously unseen enemies, so you react less consciously and more instinctively.

P.S. If this result makes the NPC's less powerful, then you can give them more hit points.

Many people complain that the AI is too scripted. Indeed, contrary to the developers statements, it seems most of what an NPC does is pre-determined. When they do make decisions on their own, they seem to be stupid. For example, guards will occasionally fight the wrong person, and then go to the person they killed and say that it was a murder. NPCs also tend to have redundant or nonsensical conversations, get themselves killed, among many other common issues. Many people believe it is "Fraudulent AI" rather than the devs' term of "Radiant AI."

I've written AI code before and it sucks. If you can write a new AI code and incorporate "learning" and all that cool stuff and actually make it efficient so that it runs 50 instances of it at a time (in a city for example) and doesn't destroy frame rate... DO IT!

Actually, Radiant AI is very successful. The problem looks more like the developers did not pay attention to limitations of the AI.

Or it was because they couldn't get the NPCs to stop killing each other randomly and breaking quests, so at the last minute they had to tone it down to a slightly more powerful fuzzy scripting system.

We're not the ones that spent months before release hyping "Radiant AI". Bethesda screwed up in that area.

Agreed. Practically every game now promises insane features before release, only to have testing inevitably demonstrate that there is only so far you can go with AI before you cause huge problems in the game.

I had read an article on the AI for oblivion when it was as strong as you guys wanted it to be it went something along the lines of this....An NPC is was set to rake the fields and another was set to dig holes and they would leave to get food and a place to sleep. Now here's the kicker Besthesda wanted to see what would happen if they swapped out the gardeners rake for the diggers spade.Well after they had swapped out the items the NPCs fought each other to the death to get their tool back which would mess up the whole game if an player messed around with that so which do you prefer constant civil war or disappointing AI?

The constant civil war thing would have been pretty entertaining. More seriously: why is this a problem? It's just another opportunity for the player to affect the game world (after all, those spades and shovels won't be moving themselves).

Indeed. Before release the AI was completely radiant. Much NPC behavior was not scripted. There were, as the guy above said, major problems. Simply dropping the Skull of Corruption in the middle of town caused the death of basically everyone there. Some NPCs didn't like it when you had your weapon out and the devs ended up getting attacked all the time. Radiant AI doesn't equal sentient programs; our tech level in this world isn't at that point. Since they couldn't make every NPC in the game essential, strict limitations in the NPC scripts had to be placed.

I think the AI here is impressive...like others have said, it has to be scripted to avoid considerable problems. My main gripe is that it's fundamentally flawed...can no AI jump?

The uncanny ability for a friendly NPC whom while attacking an enemy will almost always fall off ledges/into the closest pit or lake of lava. On multiple occasions in Oblivion, a enemy NPC archer retreated off the bridge into a lake of lava, closely followed by a friendly NPC.

I suspect that it might have at least momentarily occured to you that this behaviour was deliberate. Come on, allow yourself to be as cynical as I am about game developers and recognise that they must have their fun too.

The way the friendly NPCs always seem to attack the same target you are engaged with, and always get right in the way just after you start your super power move which results in your allies receiving that 27 base damage plus 25 frost damage.

See the second reply above.

Also, its the motions of combat, attack, dodge attacks, move around to look for an opening, there will always be those once in a while accidents.

Radiant AI still suffers from pathfinding issues - This is to be expected to some extent, but nothing breaks immersion quite like the Emperor strutting off bravely to confront his fate and walking right into a wall. Said Emperor continued to walk into the wall for about 10 seconds before deciding that something was amiss and re-evaluating his course of action. A marksman trainer has been observed attempting to cross the bridge in Cheydinhal, missing the bridge and instead walking into a rock 3 feet to the right of the bridge for several seconds until the trainer finally turned right and walked through the river to the other bank.

NPCs should recognize the danger of traps. I have watched a flame Atronach get pummeled by a rockslide I led it into, only to see my NPC guard friend charge forward, attack the Atronach, and quickly have a boulder knock him into the lava below.

Such an action is easy to describe; the trap is similar to a Sneak event. if the AI detects the trap, they avoid it, if they dont, well, sucks for them. Enjoy the Ayleid spiked floor trap. However, its much more complex; traps often cover areas, not points (like the aforementioned Ayleid floor trap). Avoiding the trap would require the AI to avoid an area; while this does not sound difficult, there are a lot of polygon parameters, trigger switch areas, peremiter equations, and of course, the ever-infamous Oblivion pathfinding mathematics.

I've experianced game play where NPCs will skirt the Ayleid spike traps when rushing to attack me or fire from across it hoping to draw me in, but in the same day I saw an NPC start running backwards and end up getting shoved into the ceiling and his lifeless body fall to the floor.

Not that I'm saying they never fall for traps, but there is at least one quest where an NPC is supposed to run ahead of you to his death, for comic effect. You then have to proceed without his help.

If attacking someone/something while invisible, said individual will ready a weapon, then put it back. Shouldn't they attack randomly a few times trying to kill you? [I've noticed that even blind priests will not notice you when you're invisible, even when you're not in stealth mode. Yet, they seem pretty good at seeking me out when I'm not invisible]

This is very true. When you hit them, shouldnt they at least know what direction the hit came from? If shot with an arrow, shouldnt they be able to tell what direction the arrow came from?

AI can sometimes cause characters to show up in the strangest of places. I've seen Dro'Nahrahe, a Khajiit lady who's Bravil's Castle Steward, show up on the southern shore of Lake Rumare.

People travel. In the case of Dro'Nahrahe, she goes between Bravil and Bruma.

NPCs, most notably guards, sometimes get into fights when one guard misses accidentally hits an ally.

How's that a gripe? It looks perfectly realistic. If the combat area is crowded, you cannot avoid friendly fire.

When was the last time you and a friend got into a fight, hit each other by accident, and then proceeded to fight each other? It isn't realistic in the slightest, and even if it was, this is a game. Realism does not come before enjoyment.

Just because they are both guards does not necessarily mean they are friends. I don't get along with everyone where I work.

Nitpick, nitpick. Friendly fire just shouldn't cause allies to fight each other, especially not when they're still under attack from more dangerous enemies, and certainly not when the allies can be expected to have some discipline. If you want to get all complicated with "guard A was just waiting for a chance to attack guard B because he secretly hates his guts", fine, but make that explicit. It's just stupid when everyone does it.

Would'nt you try and kill someone who nearlly killed you with an arrow?

{ Let's put this into a modern perspective. You're a cop. You're got a suspect surrounded. The subject is threatening to shoot , so one of your fellow cops attempts a shot. His aim is a bit off, though, and it misses the suspect and hits you in the arm. In real life, you'd probably be a bit pissed that you just got shot, but understand it's an accident, according to you, it would be more realistic if you pulled out your own gun and shot him dead. (I know, the whole scenario is unlikely, not least that a trained cop would miss with a gunshot, but roll with it, I'm making a point)

I realize that there's effectively no such thing as 'due process of law' in Cyrodiil, but you simply can't assault your coworkers for aiming a little too close for comfort.

The Highways are totally dead, save some legion soldiers and highwaymen. There needs to be travelers, horse drawn carriage merchants and Nomads (periodically setting up camps along the highway in spots designated in Code) and generally people headed from town to town-Say, someone from anvil heading to IC doing business or tourists from other parts of Tamriel.

There IS an Oblivion Crisis going on at the moment.

There are traveling merchants along the road, as well as couriers.

Yes, there has to be that many people around in one scene with trees and wagons and horses and physics reacting grass that moves when you step in it and trees that I can chop down with my Thornblade and I have a super-cluster of 256 3Ghz Xenons running 3TB of RAM with Quad-SLI 8800GTX on every node running it. no-biggie.

Adding a random NPC slider to the options could help people with lesser computing power mitigate this problem while still allowing people with more to enjoy a deeper level of immersion.

Only thing effects the perfomance in case of travellers is their AI, and you already have that many NPCs in a single place (cities).

I recently saw the Countess Narina Carvain making a trip west, though I've only seen this once. If you ride from place to place, rather than using fast travel, you may come across this as well.

The Crowded Roads Revamped mod solves that issue.

Did the SI refbug teach you anything about having a CONSTANTLY evolving world? They tried having things go on outside of the player's general area, (in this case guards patrolling) and a bunch of people got the chance to start their games over.

What's the lesson here, then? "Programming is hard"? They actually fixed that bug, and it's no excuse in any case. "It's just too hard to make lots of NPCs move around without breaking the game" doesn't sound very convincing.

Especially since the game definitely already has the code to have people walk around on those roads. There's no bug that I know of with the people already using them. There isn't any technical reason they can't do more of the same (and indeed, modders have done).

The AI is pretty consistent in the game and a vast improvement over Morrowind. However, there are still basic issues that the AI seems to have problems with. Such as "followers" getting stuck on rocks or trees, meaning you have to go back and find them and walk a different route to get them unstuck - similar to Morrowind, NPCs won't jump over a 5" rock, instead will find a route around it, even if that 5" rock is inbetween two 8' boulders. Additionally, all too often NPCs un-intelligently block views or paths, or just stand in entrance ways. On the reverse side, NPCs sitting and enjoying themselves is a pleasant sight, too bad there actions aren't the same - such as NPCs waking up, and walking over to another bed that is occupied - and getting into it. Moral of the story - don't do skooma.

On the other hand, you sometimes get particularly hilarious results, such as finding Sulinus and Vigge in bed together.

Some NPCs that you must kill start as "friendly" until they see you (such as the Mythic Dawn agents in the Dagon Shrine) and as such award you one assault and one murder if you sneak kill them. There is also a possibility that the player can run up to them fast enough to attack them before they are officially "hostile" (thus, able to be killed without an assault/murder penalty) also gaining the player an assault and murder. While most of these cases to not incur bounties, this makes role-playing a "lawful" character difficult. NPCs will also sometimes surrender, and any attack you make on them thereafter counts as a separate assault.

It's more realistic this way. If I know someone is going to kill me, in the real world, it's still illegal for me to kill them. But if he is actually attempting to kill me, it is perfectly legal for me to defend myself.

Yes, the real problem is that they ignore you even when it's all too obvious that you're going to attack them. Try using a power attack in front of a NPC.

At the same time, the NPC if programed correctly, would react to your display of your sword skills, thus putting on a performance.

Along the lines of the empty roads, why aren't there merchant caravans now and again? I mean who can honestly say that it wouldn't be interesting to attack a wagon train loaded down with gold and assorted items while fighting off its defenders?

1: pathfinding. We all know too well the indcredible pathfinding skills of the oblivion AI.

2: Where would they go after they reach the town? Theres no place to store the wagons. 3: Off-screen scripting. While it works with small numbers of targets (An imperial legion soldier on patrol) it becomes tedious, and often disastrous with large numbers of AIs. This particular problem has been previously discussed at the beginning of the section.

I kinda like this idea. I mean, the reason there aren't any is that either it simply never occurred to Bethesda, or it didn't seem important. (Both valid reasons for a case like this, in my opinion.) But still:

1: The NPCs already on the roads seem to manage.

2: They'd go to merchants, have some simple interaction implying the transfer of goods. Maybe carry a couple containers into a store, thank the merchant as though they were just payed, and hit the road again. Maybe they sell stuff themselves, and they could spend a day or two standing in town selling stuff like normal merchant NPCs, sleep in the local inn, and then move on.

3: Yeah, you could have a problem there. But a few NPCs in one or two groups traveling city to city shouldn't pose a huge problem, as long as they don't do anything too complex.

I do not like the character recognition in this game. If you are running around in an Imperial Legion's armor, and you run into another Imperial Soldier then could the developers not have graced us with "Good luck on your patrol." instead of "State your business." or "What can I do for you citizen?". This also occurs at the end of the game after you complete the main quest and pick up your Imperial Dragon Armor. I think a little more decency and regard toward the Champion of Cyrodiil would be nice...and some more privileges. This is not limited toward the Imperial Legions... just in general. For example: You run into a beggar, an example line to you would be "I do not remember committing a crime recently." while you are wearing a guard's armor.

I concur, and this is obviously possible, as the Zealots and Heretics in Shivering Isles respond to your clothing, as do the Mages in the Mages Guild if you wear Necromancer's clothing.

Also, if you run into.... whats his name(the guard who hates the Dark Brotherhood) in a Dark Brotherhood armor, he wont resspond in a diffrent way...

I think they can just tell who is a part of their team and who is not. I think the Imperial guards are separated into teams across the City, and these seem small enough for the guards to know each other.

It would be nice if the NPCs would react to seeing you run around in your underwear, though, especially if you were a non-Nord in Bruma.

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