Oblivion talk:Black Hand

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[edit] Let's get this sorted

All right. We're all aware, I think, of the discrepancies within the Black Hand after Lucien's quote "Four fingers and a thumb, if you will." This accounts for only 4 Speakers, and we have here listed 7. It's obvious that with the assassination of several members new Speakers are appointed, but the question is when, and who, and what should we list? Here is my theory.

The 5 original members of the Black Hand must be determined in order to make any progress. The Listener is obviously Ungolim, as the only NPC ever to visit the Lucky Old Lady. It is no coincidence that, excluding Matthieu Bellamont, the last Brotherhood member you kill is the leader. Lucien Lachance is similarly beyond dispute as the Cheydinhal Speaker.

Trying to get into the minds of Bethesda, I would say that the next Speaker is Arquen. She is a valuable and longtime member of the Black Hand, and it seems more appropriate to the game to rank her as Speaker.

The other two speakers would be J'Ghasta, for Bruma, and Alval Uvani. Now I haven't actually gotten beyond The Purification myself (accidentally deleted my main character twice) and so am only acting on the assumption that this UESP info is correct. But apparently in J'Ghasta's and Alval's property you can find "evidence" (Black Hand robes?) that they are Speakers. Given that the player only recieves these robes as Speaker, I'd say that's a fair guess. At the start of the game this leaves the other Black Hand members as Silencers, who presumably get promoted to Speakers after the Black Hand regroups at Applewatch. This would make sense: Shaleez, Havilstein Hoar-Blood, Matthieu Bellamont (it says he is a Silencer in his diary) and the player makes 4 Silencers, one to each Speaker.

2 Silencers, 2 Speakers and 1 Listener killed off later, we have 5 members meeting at Applewatch: Lucien Lachance, Arquen, Matthieu Bellamont, Banus Alor and Belisarius Arius. Lucien is killed, the player is promoted to Cheydinhal Speaker in his place, and then to Listener in charge of Cheydinhal.

There are two discrepancies which need to be dealt with one way or another, and I will state my opinions on them once we get down to discussion (Somebody, please respond!). They are: 1. Most obviously, during "Following a Lead" there are 5 confirmed-to-be Speakers, one too many. 2. The second is that this site lists Banus as one of the original Speakers. A source will be necessary before we discuss that any further. Robed Dawnbringer 15:40, 12 February 2008 (EST)

In response to your comment about there being one too many speakers, i think we can assume that one of the speakers was promoted to replace Lucine after he was accused of being a traitor, therfore he would not really count as a member of the black hand at that time. 80.6.71.220 16:03, 12 February 2008 (EST)

Darn, forgot to log in again! Volanaro 16:04, 12 February 2008 (EST)

To which the answer is that the player replaces Lucien. Robed Dawnbringer 16:18, 12 February 2008 (EST)

I don't see a discrepancy. Ungolim was the Listener. After you kill him, Arquen is promoted to Listener (or at least, appears to be - she's the one that takes charge of things for the final act, isn't she?), which leaves Matthieu, Banus, Belisarius, and Lucien as the Speakers. When Lucien is killed, you replace him. After dealing with the traitor, you are promoted to Listener (and Arquen is therefore demoted back to Speaker). --Gaebrial 03:17, 13 February 2008 (EST)

It seems to me that Arquen simply takes charge of the Speakers because she's been there the longest. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the more contrived we make this, the less likely it's what Bethesda had in mind. Robed Dawnbringer 12:22, 13 February 2008 (EST)

Hello? Please don't go unresponsive on me. Robed Dawnbringer 14:31, 19 February 2008 (EST)

What else is there to discuss? I think you're just making too much of this. Garbrial's reply is the most logical explanation. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 15:44, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Making too much? It is just that there is a cleanup notice on the article which I want to work towards getting rid of. Robed Dawnbringer 16:04, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Okay, I could have possibly phrased that better.... I think the cleanup tag is more about the way in which the article is phrased than any real doubt about what happens and when. That's all. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 16:38, 19 February 2008 (EST)

[edit] Verification

to quote the section "The culprit is a highly ambitious family member by the name of Matthieu Bellamont, who before the game begins is promoted to the rank of Silencer, and thus leaves the Sanctuary." I can find no refernces to the cheydinhal traitor being Mathieu Bellamont and the writer of this section appears to have jumped to the conclusion that he was ever in the cheydinhal sanctuary. Neither his journal nor any in gam text refer to him ever going to the sacntuary. For all we could know the traitor could have been one of the remaining members. Can anyone find any other verifiation for this as it appears to be based around an assumption. --Volanaro ^Talk 03:22, 17 November 2008 (EST)

Ummm... what exactly is the unfounded assumption here? From the Traitor's Diary it's clear that he was in the Cheydinhal Sanctuary ("I saw Lucien Lachance yesterday. He was in the Sanctuary talking with Ocheeva.") The various Dark Brotherhood cells are apparently independent from one another, which means it's unlikely that Ocheeva would be in any other Sanctuary. From his diary it's also clear that he was promoted to to Silencer. Therefore I don't immediately see any reason to question that sentence. --Nephele^Talk 23:42, 21 November 2008 (EST)

Ah! Sorry, completely missed that line. My mistake, guess thats sorted then. --Volanaro ^Talk 07:13, 22 November 2008 (EST)