Oblivion talk:Mankar Camoran

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Thanks for the explanation at the bottom. It cleared up what I didn't understand about Tamriel being Dagon's "birthright." =) 152.23.196.162 03:52, 19 February 2007 (EST)

I'm confused, if only a true Septim heir can wear the Amulet of Kings, how can Mankar Camoran be wearing it? Apologies in advance if his family tree is here somewhere. Th232 06:08, 26 February 2007 (EST)

I don't know that it's ever explained. At first I thought maybe it was just because he was in his own manufactured universe in Paradise, but I think he's wearing it during Dagon Shrine (can anyone confirm that?) too, and there he's in Tamriel. I don't think he can have any Septim blood, since he's the son of the Camoran Usurper and a Bosmeri woman. In terms of the game mechanics, the script on the Amulet of Kings actually only prevents the player from wearing it; any other NPC in the game could put it on. But I wouldn't say that the scripting has too much relevance for the lore of the game; that was just the easiest way for the developers to implement what they wanted. --Nephele 12:04, 26 February 2007 (EST)

Apart from scripting the book The Trials of St. Alessia says that only a descendant of St. Alessia can wear it. 21 June 2007.

Isn't that book really just Imperial propaganda? I thought the Amulet of Kings was created by the Ayleids as the stone of White Gold Tower. Mankar is probably of Ayleid descent (many of them merged with the Cameron Dynasty after the Alessians took over). - Emerald Melios 20:14, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

In Daggerfall, the Totem of Tiber Septim(the TES equivilent of a nuclear bomb) states that only someone "of the blood of Tiber Septim may wield it," and then proceeds to rattle off a list of who those people are, none of which could feasibly "blood" related to any of the others. This leads me to think that the whole "heir" thing is symbolically implies a required level of raw "found an empire/become a God" badassitude, rather than a need for having had the same ancestors "knock boots". - 71.105.170.40 04:50, 11 April 2008 (EDT)

Contents 1 Mankar's Age 2 who is his wife? 3 Mankar's Speech 4 Mankar's Speech of Oblivion and Tamriel 5 Altmer-Bosmer 6 Mankar camoran 7 Disintegrate spell 8 Cammy and the Amulet

[edit] Mankar's Age

He is immortal, and over 400 years old.

I'm moving this statement until someone can confirm it. First, I don't see how Mankar can be 400 years old: if he was born during Camoran the Usurper's invasion (based on the book The Refugees) then he was born sometime between 3E249 and 3E267. The game of Oblivion starts in 3E433, so that means he is at most 184 years old. I don't know of any statements claiming that Mankar is immortal, and 180 years seems likely to be within the normal age span of someone who is half-Bosmeri. --Nephele 12:15, 26 February 2007 (EST)

The 400 Years come from information that Tar-Meena relays during The Path of Dawn. Specifically she says about Mankar Camoran:

The supposed leader of the Mythic Dawn cult. He wrote the infamous "Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes." The "Commentaries" are contemporary with Tiber Septim, over 400 years ago. So he is unlikely to still be alive, although you never know.

Of course she may be wrong about the age of the commentaries. Possibly that age was meant to be ascribed to the Mysterium Xarxes itself. --JustTheBast 14:09, 26 February 2007 (EST)

Tar-Meena never actually read the books. Part of it describes the defeat of the Cammoran Ursupre that happened only 166 years ago.

Night follows day, and so know that this primary insight shall fall alike unto the turbulent evening sea where all faiths are tested. Again, a reassurance: even the Usurper went under the Iliac before he rose up to claim his fleet. Fear only for a second. Shaken belief is like water for a purpose: in the garden of the Dawn we shall breathe whole realities. 62.251.15.186 10:47, 13 October 2007 (EDT) Proweler

Aha, thanks for pointing that out. It's also possible that Mankar Camoran isn't the baby named Mankar in The Refugees. It seems like a logical conclusion to say that they're the same, especially with the prophecy "He will bring death. He will destroy all." But I don't know if anything in the game clearly makes that connection. This might take a bit more research ;) --Nephele 16:25, 26 February 2007 (EST)

Is it not mentioned in Savants' dialogue in Morrowind that Elves can live for well over 1000 years? (Unfortunately, I can't seem to find this dialogue in the Morrowind CS, perhaps my memory is playing me tricks.) Anyway, Barenziah met Tiber Septim after the incorporation of Morrowind into the Empire in the late Second Era, as mentioned in the Biography of Queen Barenziah and she is alive and well at the time of the events of the game Morrowind. Some of the Telvanni lords of Vvardenfell, notably Dratha and Divayth Fyr, are also living testimonies of this longevity of the Elves. It seems, however, that only a few Elves actually reach this venerable age, probably due to diseases and other dangers. (There is another example, that of Tjurhane Fyrre, an Elven scholar at the university of Gwilym, who lived for 357 years, 1E2790-2E227, as mentioned in The Wild Elves.) --Quill 18:12, 17 August 2007 (EDT)

I think a lot of people take it for granted that this Mankar Camoran is supposed to be the same Mankar Camoran mentioned in "Refugees". The modern Mankar might very well just be Tamriel variant of Jim Jones or L. Ron Hubbard, writing his own holy book, recruiting followers, and playing the role of the insane cult leader to the hilt. What some people are calling continuity errors, could very well be subtle hints that the dude isn't really what he claims he is. - 71.105.170.40 16:00, 11 April 2008 (EDT)

[edit] who is his wife?

anyone know who his wife is? (i do personaly think its odd that he had childeren) -- ^{—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.183.22.232 (talk • contribs).}

Good point - Though I suppose if you're a powerful wizard and friendly with certain Daedra Lords you can do stuff like that. Heck, Divayth Fyr had at least 4 daughters, and as far as we know was never married. Come to think of it, who was Uriel Septim's wife? And who was Martin's mother? (Since I guess they're not the same person.) Ah well, it's good to be the Emperor. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 22:52, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Uriel Septim VII was married to Caula Voria but she died over 50 years ago.

Yea, and where are _all_ children in oblivion, there aren't any, and whats the imperial sewers doing? they don't have any toilets in Oblivion do they? this could go on forever... --Viccce 14:45, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Yeah. And maybe she died a long time ago. If Camoran is really as old as we think he is, perhaps his wife died out from old age and he continued to live on past his natural time as a reward for his service to Mehrunes Dagon. It is just a theory. The other is just as good, but it does not seem to me that he would create children. He already has a cult, where all of its members are his hypothetical "children." So perhaps he and his wife had these kids when she was young, then he got involved with the Mythic Dawn, then she died, Camoran was rewarded with a sort of immortality to continue his service to Dagon, and then its now. His kids would still be alive because they were born awhile ago. That would also explain their prime age. --JB 13:31, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

As to children in Oblivion - this game started out with a Teen rating, not Mature, from the ESRB. According to ESRB policy, violence committed against children ranks a game at M. (World of Warcraft faced a similar issue, and that's why all the NPC children in the game are unattackable.) But it wouldn't be Elder Scrolls if you couldn't ace whoever you wanted to, so they just left out the kids. --Kementari 02:45, 7 June 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Mankar's Speech

Do his claims match up with what we learned of Lorkhan in morrowind? I remember that he was cast down and the dwemer had his heart but was his plane or dominion ever mentioned? --mLegion 07:44, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

I think it makes more sense to assume that the mismatches between Daedric Princes and the names of their realms are simple continuity errors, rather than evidence of Camoran's deceit. Lorkhan's nature and fate have been presented as a great mystery until this moment; all of the explanations have been incomprehensible, until this simple and elegant one, which matches the little that is clear about Lorkhan. Given that this speech of Camoran's comes as the climax of the story approaches, I think it fits as *the* revelation about the nature of the world in this installment of the Elder Scrolls series. Symbolically, by learning the truth and choosing to fight Camoran anyway, the protagonist is accepting human mortality. --FoolishOwl 04:45, 7 June 2007 (EDT)

Indeed! I think that there is the simple assumption that the books are right and that this guy is wrong without discussion of the possibly that he is telling the truth - after all, the books where written in-game long after the 'Mythic era' and its entirely possible the developers got the naming alittle wrong ; irregardless, its entirely within reason that Akatosh or Lorkhan (or are they really one and the same? Given Lorkhan's very vague details?) use to be in service to Mehrunes Dagon, and somehow rebelled and sealed off 'Tamriel'/Nirn from its Daeric Prince. Afterwards, if it was Akatosh, it would be somewhat understandable that he/she would want to 'edit' the past. It would explain why the Emperors are needed to light the Dragon fires in order to keep out the other realms of Oblivion, a process seeming unique to Tamriel - and if we assume Tamriel/Nirn isn't special in anyway, and another plane/planet Oblivion, it does answer the 'why'. But back to the point - none of the discussion is mentioned in the article, and unless the developers have stated one way or the other, surely some mention should be made of it, with the qualifier that it could be propaganda, lies, misdirection, etc. --Doug1984 13:16, 20 March 2008 (EDT)

I just read User:Mankar Camoran's full copy of the Tamriel speech and it seems very clear that Lorkhan is a Daeric prince (i.e. the prince of Nirn/Tamriel), and was betrayed by his minions (I don't reckonise the listed names). Anywho, it would certainly fit with the rest of the world canon if Mankar Camoran (the character, not the user ;)) was right and truthful. Where Akatosh fits into this exactly... I'm not sure. --Doug1984 16:44, 20 March 2008 (EDT)

Julianos, Dibella and Stendarr are three of the Nine Divines. I don't know how or when they betrayed Lorkhan, though. --Mankar Camoran^{•T•C•E•} 08:47, 21 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Mankar's Speech of Oblivion and Tamriel

That's not the entire speech I don't think, and at one point in the game Tamriel is referred to as 'Mundus'. He stated that it was simply a realm of oblivion where Mehrunes Dagon had been betrayed by those who served him. And also mentioning how 'mighty gods could die, but the daedra stand incorruptible', with references towards tales of Lorkhan not being able to be erased completely because the Daedra could not be erased.

When the Shivering Isles expansion released, Haskill, Lord Sheogorath's Chamberlain, also referred to Tamriel as Mundus.

Mundus is another term for Nirn, the planet Tamriel is found on. Tamriel itself is just one large continent that the Elder Scrolls games have taken place on primarily. There are also other continents on Nirn, such as Akavir. Mundus is also sometimes taken as referring to the realm of existence that contains the "planet" of Nirn. --Skogul 09:30, 13 September 2007 (EDT)

If I remember my lore correctly, aren't the concepts of "planets" in TES games nothing but an interpretation of broken mortal perception of the planes of oblivion? -71.105.170.40 04:37, 11 April 2008 (EDT)

Although the question of whether Lorkhan is/was truly a Daedric Prince and Tamriel is just an Oblivion plane probably will continue to be debated, I think the game designers meant for the audience to accept Camoran's speech as fact, seeing as how there is no other quests or journal entries related to finding out more on the subject. In fact, the game was titled Oblivion rather cryptically i like to think; perhaps a way of hiding a secret right out in the open.

With that said, it is rather interesting then to think that Akavir is not of the same "plane" as Tamriel (According to Camoran, "Dawn's Beauty" refers only to Tamriel. How could the idea of planets be an illusion then, if only a body of water (and some crazy magic) divides two supposedly different planes. The Tamriel empire did manage to battle Akavir briefly, so if these are supposedly different planes of oblivion, why didnt the Dragon Fires divide them? What then, are the stars, the moons, and the sun in the sky? Why would a plane of Oblivion need these things? How would these concepts exist if not already present somewhere in the ES universe?

Im contradicting myself here, but perhaps the game creators have a way of correcting their errors/revealing the truth. I hope they arent getting lazy and creating games that contradict things only to sweep it under the carpet.209.134.75.234 17:05, 25 May 2008 (EDT)DarthShrute

Perhaps Im missing something here and someone would kindly fill me in, but as far as Im concerned, Camoran's speech was meant to be a huge (and true) revelation to the player, but it doesnt seem like it was fully thought out.

Same here - I thought Mankar's speech was to reveal to the player that the whole of the history of Tamriel was a deception, or rather the formation of Tamriel was, heh ^{—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.70.17.12 (talk • contribs).}

[edit] Altmer-Bosmer

It is stated in the book The Refugees that his mother is a Bosmer so shouldn't he be a Bosmer? I know he's an Altmer though.64.131.15.50 18:22, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

This is pure speculation. May be his father was an Altmer. --Mankar Camoran 08:10, 29 September 2007 (EDT)

True, but in the book Notes on Racial Phylogeny it is said that children take on the traits of their mothers.

Mankar Camoran is half Bosmer, half Altmer, if I'm not mistaken. SubtleCynicism 20:28, 30 September 2007 (EDT)

But he is considered an Altmer by everyone. He even looks like an Altmer, doesn't he? --Mankar Camoran 12:30, 1 October 2007 (EDT)

He's definitely an Altmer. I think this is just one of those little quirks we've all come to know and love about the game! --Rpeh^Talk 02:56, 2 October 2007 (EDT)

Yes. He is an Altmer even according to the CS. Thanks to you, Rpeh, I just started using the CS. Amazing that I hadn't tried my hand at it till now. That's why this is such a great place. We can learn so much here. --Mankar Camoran 15:57, 2 October 2007 (EDT)

"If I have seen further it is by standing on ye shoulders of Giants." Isaac Newton. I only know what I know because I know that those I know know those who know. :p --Rpeh^Talk 16:05, 2 October 2007 (EDT)

That was really awesome! --Mankar Camoran 16:20, 2 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Mankar camoran

Im pretty sure he has a destruction spell on his spell list also, as he hit me with a fireball(directly shot out of his hand). --Umbacano 11:06 , 27 March 2008 (EST)

Good point. There were a couple missing spells, all of which have now been added to the list. --Nephele^Talk 23:35, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Disintegrate spell

Good that the remaining spells have been added. One note though: what type of disintegrate? Weapon or Armor?--LordDagon 08:41, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

It could be either. It's leveled. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 10:29, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Cammy and the Amulet

Maybe Cam can where the Amulet of Kings because he is in the wonderful place with his own rules and such. Just an idea--Drake3555 20:03, 15 June 2008 (EDT)