Oblivion talk:Marksman

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Somebody please check if normal arrows shot from a silver bow damage "immune to normal" enemies?

I can't confirm that, but I think it will work. At the very least, normal arrows fired from an enchanted bow definitely work. Quillan 09:23, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

Yeah, I fired Iron Arrows from a Silver Bow, and Silver Arrow From a Steel Bow. Both allowed me to hit wraithes and such. I want an orcish bow and crossbows. If backwater Dark Elves in Morrowind can have them ( Crossbows ), why can't the sophisticated armies of Cryodiil? I have an idea. If Blades are set in three categories, each with a rising level of damage, Bow should have three similar categories. Blades, at least the one handed ones, have weak ( daggers ), stronger (shortswords) and stongest (longswords). Bows can have weak ( either shortbow, or just bow), stronger ( longbow ), and strongest ( crossbow ). Just like their blade counterparts, these different degrees of bows would take longer to use. The shortbow could fire off quickly, but the corssbow would take a few seconds to reload. This is a good mod idea... HAHAH, You would look like Legolas as you fired off a shortbow, all fast

--but to make the shortbows work you would have to tinker a little more then normal due to the physics engine making arrows shot off fast fall to the ground quickly--Acheeze 19:02, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

That's not a problem, I would have to do a lot more work with the crossbow than longbow and shorbow combined. The thing with the crossbow is that it would actually have less range than the shorbow, but still would be much more powerful becuase the bolt is heavier. The crossbow isn't too appealing to work with, but I would be willing to do it. Since I would have to make custom models for the crossbow and bolts, there would only be 2-3 variations maybe.

I have no idea where the concept of crossbows having a short range comes from, it's deinately not true. A crossbow has a better range than any bow it just takes forever to reload. Grandmaster z0b 21:19, 25 February 2007 (EST)

I guess you don't know but, bows do fire alot further than crossbows, longbows and shortbows both go further than crossbows in the times they were used. Historically long bows always had the longest range. Some crossbows may have been longer range than some shortbows, but not many. As said in a previous post, crossbows are more damaging as the bolt is heavier and do take a long time to reload.

Yes the avove is true I have written a bit near the bottom of the page that explains it in more detail. I just have to add however crossbows arent neccasarily more damaging, it relies more on where the shot lands, and if your talking about armour penetration, bows can use heavy tipped quarrel in order to effectively peirce armour also. 172.212.84.191 13:06, 5 August 2007 (EDT)

I would still like to see hitboxes and dynamic penetration of arrows. If you hit someone in the head, they should die almost insantly with an arrow. If they have a good helmet, it should simply bounce off and not do any damage. Im sick of my guy running around with 50 arrows shot all the way into him, while they only took half his health. The armor on your guys body should have the same properties as static objects in the game. Just like an arrow will bounce off stone walls, a weak arrow should bounce off the steel your guy is wearing. If it does penetrate, it should be the calculated how much flesh is shot through, and damage will be taken accordingly. Oh, good idea, then poisioned arrows mean nothing if they dont penetrate, but the arrow itself will still hurt your guy a little from the impact Aye, someone should make this all a mod, someone... Someone that knows how to mods perhaps...lol

--perhaps a mod that in addition to the things you said does damage acording to where it hits like, as you said, a headshot (i actually yell out HEADSHOT like it is said in Halo) would kill instantly, a arrow that pierces the heart would do the same. And perhaps For armored enemies you would have to shoot between armor panels or soft spots. I think ill start a mod page for this (i cant do a mod like this myself)--Acheeze 21:37, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

If arrow would hit iron plate-mail example, the arrow will go through armor. To stop arrows - chainmail.Plate mail weakness are spears, arrows. Plate-mail is meant to soften hits from swords, axes and blunts. Chain-mail weakness are swords, axes. They are meant to stop arrows, spears and blunts. Leather weakness are swords and axes. They have slight weakness to everything, but they work best against blunt and also arrows.

Again I have no idea where this bizarre idea comes from but it is definately not true. In fact in real life chainmail is weak to spears, arrows and blunt and strong against blades. Plate is good against everything except blunt. Leather would be good against arrows and blunt though. Grandmaster z0b 21:19, 25 February 2007 (EST)

Fails at physics. This idea sounds like it was taken from a rock, paper, scissors style strategy rpg game.

Not true z0b, chainmail as it was commonly used (you would have 1-2 layers of chain + another layer over more vital areas + a thick underlay of fabric to limit damage from penetration and also to soften the concussive force of blows) was effective at stopping alot of potential harm, its not a game where things are weak to x and strong vs y. However it was more succeptable to penetration than other armour (e.g scale). However plate works best against everything, being 'weak to blunt' is a bizzare falacy. Its main purpose is to minimize concussive force which plate with an underlay does very well. The only way to take down someone in plate is to strike weakspots (armpits, crotch etc) plates 'weakness' is that it is hot and tiring and even the best trained knights would be nearly passing out after only a few minutes of continuos combat in a suit. Leather on the other hand is next to useless, better than nothing but its not going to stop anything really, just possibly deflect it. Most leather/fabric armour has some metal support in it to improve its effectiveness but it is still very suceptable. 172.212.84.191 13:06, 5 August 2007 (EDT)

Just thought i'd add at the end, weakspots are always the way that you would take down someone in armour whether it be chain, scale, partial plate, plate, banded etc. but in a completely just penetrating armour sense then piercing is always the most efficient way simply due to energy/contact area. Thats why swords became more and more tapered as armour became more prevalent, to improve thier effectiveness at stabbing. And please dont bring samuri swords into this, different situations acheiving different outcomes) 172.212.84.191 13:15, 5 August 2007 (EDT)

The above user is correct, more force applied at a smaller area means you're more likely to deform an object.

Well I'm having trouble even decing where to begin. I guess we need to round up real modders. I've modded a lot in other games, I know how it all works, but I'm not familar with the Construction Set that much. I tried making a page earlier but didn't know what to call it so decided to wait. We can make a "Penetration Mod" for now, the other stuff should wait until we know how complicated ES modding is.

It shouldnt be that hard, we can simply layer the characteristsics of stones or metals ( we would definatly have to tweak the values ), over the texures for armor. Making it "hard" armor should be a copy and paste job really, but the penetration part sounds like a toughy. Wait, water in Oblivion has a penetration value, an arrow comes to a dead stop after 4 or so feet, which is pretty realistic I guess. The player can walk around with an invisible layer of water around him which coresponds to the strength of his armor? lol

Although the arrow never physically passes into this layer of water, the water iself calculates whether or not it stops, so if the buffer of water says that the arrow would have got stuck, the "hard" armor will be actiavated. Otherwise, the arrow will act like it does now and just sink right into someone.

It sounds complicated to use that water, but otherwise I don't have any idea as for a material that can calulate the level of penetration. You can't say, if arrow hits stone with certain mass, arrow passes through stone. hmm...interesting

A tricky part then, the the water is so close to the armor, that it would have to calculate pretty fast to determine whether or not to make "hard" armor...hmmm...seems easy to glitch..is anyone listening still? It's ok if you're not

ChristensenCT

I wonder if you could drop the whole water thing, give up on hitboxes (they are very hard to do in the simple scripting language) and dynamically change arrow display chance (I know this CAN be tweaked, see "improved arrow recovery" mod) so if the enemy wears daedric, the armour just bounces off like from skeletons, doing nearly null damage, if you wear mixed armour, the chance is reduced and damage assigned randomly according to armour hardness distribution (not sure where the arrow hits). Let me also paste my argument from the forum:

What else would the Marksman be for?

Accidents may happen like you may broke the string or enemy will cut your bow half(i saw that an orc with daedric axe hit my rusty iron bow and i blocked it).

Maybe an archery element could be implemented for lower level Marksmenship, say you could either have to press a button
combination or roll for a certain percentage in battle if you want to fire faster, and if you lose the roll or mess 
up the buttons, BAM! Dryfire. It would definetly take a toll on your bow durability, as numerous people in real 
life situations have gotten nervous and dryfired while hunting.

It -could- improve range, accuracy of the bow, chance to restore arrow, rate of fire, wear of the bow from using it,
speed of the arrow, straighten the arc of the arrow flight, decrease enemy's armour rating vs arrows, allow for 
location-based criticals (heart, eye, head, throat), and quite a few more. It just doesn't.

Actually real life marksman/archer skill doesn't really improve "damage" done by arrows (except by improving aim and hitting 
vulnerable places.) The damage (force at which the arrow hits, ability to pierce armour, depth of wound) is improved 
by type of bow (force needed to pull the string) and matching strength of the archer - a weaker guy, putting lots of 
effort in pulling the string of a "hard" bow can't aim correctly, can't hold hand steady with muscles tensed to the 
limits - so limiting usable bows types depending on STR would make sense - agility, marksman responsible for aim, while 
bow type, strength responsible for damage, fatigue and potentially aim penalty (if strength below required).

This way sure, feel free to steal that pretty daedric bow, and good luck hitting a barn with it if your strength is 40, 
no matter what agility and marksman skill (and of course you use up all your fatigue for one shot). With good agility, 
marksman and a light bow you can shoot deers across Lake Rumare, but if you shoot a dremora with it, the arrows will 
just bounce off.

This would mostly require parameters tweaking, very little or no realtime scripting and could pretty well work with the above - use weak bow against heavily armoured enemy - no effect, no damage. Use stronger bow against medium enemy, the arrows have a better chance of penetration. Simply commit the value of damage and fact of penetration not to actual location the arrow hits, but to a random (though well ballanced) pick. - You shoot arrow. Type of bow and of arrow gives the energy of arrow, its capacity of piercing. - Arrow hits enemy. You "roll" for location it hits: 10% head, 45% torso, 15% hands, 20% thighs, 10% feet. - Check value (type) of armour at given location against the energy of arrow. Potentially roll a chance of hitting uncovered area in case of non-full armour piece (open helmets, cuirass without pauldrons). - Assign damage according to whether, and how much does the arrow penetrate. Perform either rock-like bounce-off or wood-like pierce animation display (possibly by briefly changing the type of enemy?)

This doesn't conflict with the idea of hitboxes and could cooperate with them - if the hitbox glitches, fall back to randomizing. Or use two-three hitboxes (head, upper, lower body) instead of one for each piece of armour you wear, then randomize within armour elements contained in hitbox. --Vook 06:46, 16 May 2006 (EDT)

Aye, it all could be done, but I have a few complaints. For one, your strength shouldn’t alter the actions of the bow. Two attributes shouldn’t be needed to wield a bow, that would be unfair to archers. Unless you made swords based on both strength and endurance, OR you could balance it out by giving the bow a lot of power. Also, Oblivion tries to move away from all the "random" actions. If it's ultimately decided that hits with the arrow can only be done by random, then just don't do it because that’s not how the game works. Other than that, it sounds like it can be done. Well, I think someone already made this mod anyway. --ChristensenCT 00:39, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

Life's not fair ;) I agree that in -all- cases counting Strength towards max damage and Agility towards aim, speed etc would be fine, except used in different context (Bow: Strength caps the type of bow you can efficiently use, Agility allows for better aim no matter what bow, Sword: Strength decides about sword damage, Agility allows to swing it faster). Replacing completely silly calculations (better damage vs heavily armoured opponent thanks to higher Agility, if you shoot from half a mile away?) with random factor is better than leaving them for sake of game design consistency especially that Oblivion has some horrible design decisions.

I bet the "random" approach could be good for rapid shots when you really can't aim well. And you could introduce an idea of "aimed shot" - if the enemy isn't moving, is not very far, you aren't moving, you are in sneak mode and not seen, the mod "builds" (static) hitboxes around the enemy and then you perform a nice fully-calculated hitbox-based shot with all the nice features :)

Besides, the damage-strength progression doesn't have to be straight and linear. I can imagine a very light elven bow doing more damage over long distance than arm-ripping dwarven one - introduce idea of long bows (more difficult to wield, slower to shoot, but deliver decent punch and great aim), short bow (faster, weaker, worse aim), reflex bow (poor aim, good speed, huge strength required, but inflicts massive damage), and finally crossbow (ultra-slow, ultra-high punch, very good accuracy).

Also, the damage could depend on distance and arrow weight - air resistance. Finally the heavy dremora field arrows would make sense - no damage loss for ultra-long sniper shots, while being equal in quality with iron arrows on short distance. Heavy arrow carries the energy better.

Oh, in case anybody was not paying attention, im gonna have to be a jerk about the different damage for different body parts idea and tell you all that if we can get even a mediocre modder on it, he can reuse the data gathered for armor wear and tear to determine where the hit lands (yes, it does actually damage armor based on what is hit). I bet it would be a pretty simple task to use that info that Oblivion is already generating and plugging it into a formula, but I honestly have no idea (and no time, which is why I'm talking about this instead of writing it). Thanks for bearing with my obnoxious and insulting tone, it was just a means of getting your attention.

Contents 1 Underwater 2 pc vs 360 versions 3 Zzz good idea, but wrong facts. 4 Free Arrows 5 Leveling Marksman by Recollecting Arrows 6 Arrow Glitch 7 Foolish Ideas 8 Catching arrows in mid air?

[edit] Underwater

I've shot my bow underwater before, but it's kinda useless, the physics make it stop like 4 feet into the water, just like a bullet fired from a gun. But just like a gun, Ive shot the bow underwater. Ill get screens if you want

Yep, agreed, applied changes to reflect it, that's what I meant originally. It can be shot if you want to waste arrows, but doing any damage is near-impossible.

[edit] pc vs 360 versions

Ok...everyone is talking about radiant AI is so awesome and physics and stuff...and DO NOT GET ME WRONG i am a massive elder scrolls fan, but on xbox 360 in my experience ( ive beat the game and done all the guilds quests) ive seen no sign of great AI, or any special physics. On my 360 i could easily shoot something underwater...if theyre far away the arrows just floats to the top but if they where a few feet away it does normal damage.Also ive tested that even the heaviest object in the game cannot even slightly damage anyone if its pushed on them...if it was real time physics a 500lb boulder would crush basically every creature in the game, and also ive noticed horses are easier to drag then rats....i kid you not. For those of you that have pc version, or both pc version and xbox360, is it just xbox 360 version is lower quality or wtf?and like i said i love elder scroll. oblvion is my favorite game i'm just asking this because what poeple are saying is totally different then what i see on my copy of the game.

Well, Oblivion itself uses the Havok physics engine. A high-end PC might have more processing power for the physics (which allows for less slowdown and more calculations), but there shouldn't be that much of a difference.

My first developed character is a master marksman, and i have fired arrows underwater. They do not go more than a meter in front of you before sinking to the bottom, instead of raising to the surface as you say. Also, in some oblivion gates, as well as dungeons, there are falling boulders that hurt enemies. There is a dungeon in particular with a series of timed, crushing blocks on a catwalk. I maneuvered my way through them, goaded a slew of enemies into following me, retraced back through and watched as the foes were crushed one by one attempting to get through the blocks. Enemies can also take damage from falling large heights. And what do you mean by "drag"? telekinesis? are we even talking about the same game?

In my experience, arrows float to the surface when fired underwater... maybe heavier arrows sink though, I'm not quite sure. And about the dragging, on the Xbox360, holding LB allows one to move things around. On the PC it's the 'Z' button. In the controls it is labeled 'Grab'. Basically the same effect as telekinesis, but indefinate as long as the LB/Z button is held, and with a shorter range and no experience points gained for anything. Darkle 22:30, 15 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Zzz good idea, but wrong facts.

Well first off.. short, regular, and longbows do equal ratios of damage... the shorter the bow the fast the shots, the longer the bow the further distance (at least that's how it is in real life)and crossbows can be rapid shot and are strong on impact, but lack seriously in accuracy. I wish oblivion brough back throwing weapons like darts and surikans..

(That doesn't make sense. A longbow pushes an arrow farther than a shortbow because the force exerted by the longbow is much greater than that of a shortbow (150 lbs of force compared to the average of 50 lbs of force). And the 'damage' that we refer to is piercing power of an arrow. While it is certainly true that at a point, shortbows and longbows would be the same (for instance, if a shortbow would go all the way through a human, a longbow would be no more powerful), Longbows of sufficient power COULD break bones or split bones. Longbows would be much more powerful than shortbows, though their effects on something such as a thin sheet of cloth would be relativley the same.)

Actually the above isnt too true. While draw weight does play a major part in the force behind the arrow, also the mechanics of the bow itself come into play. That is why longbows can shoot arrows with as much force as a crossbow with a higher draw weight. The crossbow has more draw weight than the longbow but has less distance to impart its energy into the arrow due to the limbs of the bow section being very short, on the other hand a long bow with a lower draw weight has much more distance to impart the energy into the arrow, so less energy is wasted with noise heat and recoil.

You can modify any bow type to have any draw weight. Its just with equal draw weights a longbow will hit harder than other types. However you couldnt use a longbow on a horse (shortbow for that) and you couldnt train someone to accurately shoot a longbow within a couple of months (crossbow for that)

and of course quarrel wieght and shot trajectory play a part but this has become too long winded enough already. (sorry for any spelling errors im typing on a laptop and im not used to it) 172.212.84.191 12:49, 5 August 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Free Arrows

As a note to beginning players trying to conserve cash in their first levels, you can freely take arrows that NPCs fire into the targets behind the Fighter's Guild at Chorral without incurring a bounty. Just wait for a couple Fighters to start practicing their archery; when they've finished, you can simply grab them all from the targets. --TheRayven 16:53, 14 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Leveling Marksman by Recollecting Arrows

I've gained levels from collecting arrows from enemies I have shot. I think you also gain experience from recovering arrows.

Can someone verify this? ^{—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.162.220.244 (talk • contribs).}

I don't know how you did that. It is not possible to gain experience by recovering arrows. See Marksman#Skill_Increases. --Mankar Camoran^{•T•C•E•} 16:45, 24 December 2007 (EST)

After killing an enemy it takes a few moments for your marksman skill to increase. What must have happened was that you killed an enemy, then while you were collecting arrows your marksman skill increased because of the enemy you just killed a few moments ago. The same thing has happened to me a few times.--Willyhead 17:00, 8 February 2008 (EST)

[edit] Arrow Glitch

I'm getting a strange bug with my bow on a new character I've created. When I pull back the bowstring and hold it back, I hear the whistle of the arrow as if I let it go, the arrow seems to move forward and float on the end of my bow, and then when I let it go it shoots off to the right, then the arrow slings around in mid-air and corrects itself to go where I was aiming. Anyone else ever have this happen to them? --Mole126 04:06, 16 February 2008

Short answer is no. Have you tried quitting the game and reloading? That sounds like something has got messed up in memory. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 04:39, 16 February 2008 (EST)

Seems to have gone away on its own after I completed the Dark Brotherhood quest "A Watery Grave". --Mole126 19:18, 16 February 2008 (EST)

It's Happened to me too.I think Rpeh is right, it's a glitch in memory,it goes away on its own,dropping or switching bows or arrows sometimes works too.--Puddle 21:25, 28 February 2008 (EST)

It happened to me using a dwarven bow, but went away when I switched to an elven. I figured that it was some random glitch because of training marksman or something.(I had recently shot a large amount of arrows training up).--129.62.113.147 22:43, 4 March 2008 (EST)

I think it may have something to do with lag. I'm shooting a bow in Chorrol right now, with corpses and miscellaneous items littering the streets, and the glitch keeps on happeneing. -Puddle ^{Talk•Contribs.} 15:54, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Foolish Ideas

I may be new hear but there I am not new to Oblivion. If all of the ideas listed in boxes above were to be implemented into the game of Oblivion then there would be a surplus of factors that make the game more complicated and much more slow, thus ruining the incredible combat style that we have all come to know and love from Bethesda. The marksman interface works fine as is and needs no change besides a broader selection of bows and arrows available for use and more races specializing in this field (only Wood Elves and Dark Elves get Marksman right off the bat). Any variables that greatly altered the gameplay would also greatly reduce the fun. --Glass

[edit] Catching arrows in mid air?

Can anyone confirm/deny if arrows can be caught by pressing the A button (xbox 360) fast enough? Sorry if this is already in the discussion or something.

No problem, yes they can, I believe it says so on the article.-Puddle ^{Talk•Contribs.} 15:56, 30 June 2008 (EDT)