Oblivion talk:Next of Kin

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Cheesy yet effective[edit]

The problem with killing Caelia Draconis without incurring a bounty is a big one, but there's one way to accomplish it, given foreknowledge of two things: A> At Level 1, Caelia can be easily defeated by Cingor; and B> Cingor (a Mythic Dawn spy) will spontaneously attack you if you lower his Disposition below 10.

The solution presents itself by immediately trekking to Leyawiin as a new character, inciting Cingor to attack you through Persuasion, then leading the homicidal Woof Elf towards Caelia. Should they join battle, Cingor will slay Caelia for you, without any penalty upon yourself.

At some point in the day, both Cingor and Caelia will be in the Three Sisters' Lodge (Caelia in her room, Cingor in the tavern). That's as good time as any to pull off the trick.

  • to kill Caelia Draconis without getting a bounty, i recommend useing an enchanted mage hood as described under Dark Brotherhood Overall Killing Hints, do it when she sleeps at 5pm, remember to sneak.
  • Kill her while she sleeps in the Barracks. I didn't get a bounty when I did this. (1st person commentary moved from main page)

When I went in to kill her while she slept in the City Watch Barracks I got the 5 gold fine for trespassing since I had been in there before to kill Adamas Phillida. A guard then tried to arrest me and I then pushed resist arrest. All of the guards including her woke up to join the fight and I then proceeded to kill her without getting a 1000 gold fine for attacking a guard. I then surrendered and payed the fine for trespassing.

As far as killing her with the gray fox cowel on, i dont think it is necicary to find a guard outside. Taking it off should do just fine to get rid of the bounty.

"Walk up to her, and tell her you are going to kill her and she will attack, preventing you from getting a bounty" This is incorrect as far as I know. You'll get a bounty of 40 for attacking a guard. I think the whole problem with this quest is that she will report your murder even if she's killed in one blow and even if there's no other guard in the room. 87.180.235.219 14:12, 22 January 2007 (EST)

She will somehow "report" your murder even if all you do is equip items with a combined 100% Reflect Damage and tell her you need her dead, resulting in her in essence killing herself when she attacks you, without you lifting a finger against her, and with no other guard in the room. 174.6.51.17 23:51, 12 July 2013 (GMT)

Some Notes on Sibylla Attacking you on sight[edit]

This doesn't seam to necessarily be true, when I entered the cave she did not attack me on sight, but her animal friends did. I'm not sure exactly how the game decides to have her attack you, but when I went just a little bit into the cave I was able to attack and kill the animals without Sibylla attacking me. The only way I got her to attack me was by staying at the entrance and waiting for the mountain lion to come to me, after which I attacked the lion and then Sibylla started attacking me. Of course I could have accidentally hit Sibylla in the process which would also have caused her to attack me. I just wanted to add this because it really doesn't look like this is set in stone, and my personality may have something to do with it as well, but I'm not sure of this.--Soundfx4 18:46, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

Gift delivery.[edit]

I'm thinking of adding something along these lines, what does everybody think?

Delivering the gifts[edit]

Just for fun you could buy and "deliver" the gifts in the gift list from Perennia Draconis, she has already paid you to deliver them. For extra evilness (or the cheap), you could steal some of these gifts from the other family members. Reverse pick pocketing is not going to work, most of the gifts have weight. It's much easier to "give" a gift to a corpse.

Matthias Draconis[edit]

Iron or steel cuirass, not too light, easy to find, but expensive to buy. You could blow most of the budget on this, or use a permanant bound item glitch and reverse pick pocket a Deadric Cuirass onto him. Giving it to him before killing him might make it harder to kill him. Caelia has a nice cuirass, but it's light, so it doesn't really match the description in the gift list.


Caelia Draconis[edit]

Pretty "girl" stuff like flowers, perfumes, and chocolates. Flowers are easy - Alkanet Flower, Dragons Tongue, Nightshade, Redwort Flower, Planter, and a Bouquet of flowers. Those last two are zero value items, so you wont be able to buy them anywhere. Matthias and Andreas have Planters you could steal. Bouquet of Flowers are hard to find, usually they are only left at a few special grave sites.

Perfumes don't actually exist in game, but potions of Fortify Personality should be suitable substitutes. Potion of Personality (all three strengths) and Newheim's Special Brew are the only built in potions. You could make your own Fortify Personality potion with Imp Gall and Troll Fat, and call it "Perfume". The ingredients used in making real life perfumes can be just as icky.

Chocolate also does not exist in game. Try using Sweetcakes and Sweetrolls.


Andreas Draconis[edit]

Set of tavern glasses, "frosted ebony" or "Altmeri crystal", but there is no such thing in game. Silver Glasses or Silver Goblets should do the trick. Matthias has a pair of Silver Goblets you could steal. A "set" probably consists of at least six though.


Sibylla Draconis[edit]

Largest fur blankets you can find. Once again, no such thing in game, but a raw animal skin should do the trick, Sibylla wont mind. Bear Skin is the biggest one. At higher levels she has plenty of bears in her cave, you could use those.

Onefang 18:30, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

I wouldn't add that to the main article, no. It's a nice idea, but Oblivion:Things_to_Do_When_You're_Bored|Things to do When You're Bored might be a better choice. --RpehTalk 11:52, 15 July 2007 (EDT)

Bounty on Fallowers?[edit]

(Moved from the article)

Sometimes the fallower will get a bounty on their head, causing the guards to go after them, even if they respawn.

Spelling aside, I'm not sure NPCs can get bounties. I suppose this could be caused by a relationship problem but in any case, can anybody confirm? --RpehTCE 02:49, 16 November 2007 (EST)

The console can set a bounty on an NPC. Robed Dawnbringer 14:41, 26 February 2008 (EST)
Actually NPCS do get bounties, my Battlehorn Knight and the guy who sells the house in Anvil always kill innocents with me, and get attacked by guards...- GrayFox:Skalrag — Unsigned comment by 68.195.57.197 (talk) at 02:19 on 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Reflect Damage[edit]

(moved from the article)
  • Reflect Damage: To kill her without incurring a large bounty, an item with Reflect Damage effect. Then sneak up and pickpocket her - and get caught. She'll attack you. Do not fight back, just let the items reflect all damage. Other guards may join in the attack, but if you can weather the blows while reflecting all her damage she will soon drop dead, and you'll be faced with a mere 25 gold bounty.
  • The 'Reflect Damage' tactic recommended for killing Caelia Draconis does not always work. While playing on the PC (GOTY v 1.2.0416) it has occurred that you still get a bounty of 1025 Gold.

TBH, the reflect damage idea is a pretty obvious technique for killing someone, but if the "bug" is accurate, it's not a very good technique here anyway. If anyone can narrow down the circumstances under which the various outcomes occur then maybe it can go back on, but at the moment I think it's way too vague to be useful. –RpehTCE 14:33, 31 January 2008 (EST)

A little more on this method. I had just under 50% Reflect damage, and Expert Block skill, and simply chose the "I'm afraid I need you. Dead." option to turn her hostile. No bounty and she quickly whittled herself down between the reflection and knockbacks. The first time I tried this another guard was trying to help by pelting her with arrows, and Cingor came in at the end, so I'm not sure if reflection or one of them got the death blow in, but I wound up with 0 bounty that time. The second time, after a bit of the old reflection, I just went ahead and hacked back at her with poison and only wound up with an assault bounty of 40. The third time, I closed ground with the other guard so he'd stop with the arrows, and kept pushing down the street away from where Cingor had showed up, so it was definitely the reflection that dealt the final blow. Right before that I brought up the journal, and my bounty was at 0. Now it gets weird. The guard accepts my yield, "I'll let you live this time," turns away, then turns right back with the "Stop!" and bingo 1000 bounty. So reflect works will work as long as you can get Cingor, a dumb archer guard shooting through her, or a guildmate/follower around to deal the death blow (it helps to remove the reflect items when she's almost there and help has arrived, or save and retry works). Also, amusingly, Cingor spouts all kinds of spoiler dialog about the Dawn, Dagon and the Cleansing even if you haven't advanced the Main Quest yet.--DoubleGrande 00:57, 28 February 2009 (EST)

Sanguine Rose[edit]

(moved from the article)
  • Sanguine Rose If you by any chance have kept the Sanguine Rose, you can use it on her without a bounty, just stay hidden when you do. It will summon a Daedric monster on her which will attack her. It may take a few shots, but it brings her down.

Well... extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence is all I can say. Can anybody else verify this? 19:07, 5 February 2008 (EST)

I can't confirm that it happens with Caelia, but I can confirm that I used exactly this tactic on Mephala's quest, and did not receive a bounty. In fact, I didn't even have to stay hidden - I don't see any reason why you should - the summoned daedra is not allied with you - unless it attracts the attention of other guards. --Gaebrial 02:20, 6 February 2008 (EST)
I can confirm that this happens with Caelia, too: I've had to stay hidden (I was 100% Chameleon) and the summoned daedra killed her, leaving me with no bounty.

Caelia Draconis[edit]

Found that when I killed all the other family members and left her until the end the quest finished without needing me to kill her. Interested to knw if this was a one off bug or if anyone else found this. This of course eliminates the need to kill arguably the hardest opponent in this quest due to the almost iminent bounty.

Is she still alive though? You don't have to kill her if something has already done the job. –RpehTCE 12:26, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
Surprisingly yes. Maybe it is just a bug or something but she is definitely still alive and I didn't kill her in the quest :/ Largo 16:05 12 June '08

Watery death[edit]

This one doesn't work, she always goes up for air then doesn't come back down --Fibbler 23:00, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

Perhaps you could try using a drain fatigue spell before she goes up for air? Scroova 17:16, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Watch the Legionnaire Kill Andreas Draconis[edit]

Observed: I annoyed the Legion Guard (via pickpocketing) such that he attempted to arrest me. After choosing "resist arrest" and quickly exiting the inn, the legionnaire did not follow. Afterwards, on re-entering the inn, the legionnaire did not attack, but rather Andreas Draconis attacked the legionnaire (and was killed), possibly because of disposition. So, if you're annoyed by that ever-present and overly armored guest, just trick him into doing your work for you... 14theace 23:47, 13 May 2009 (EDT)

this is also possible by talking to Andreas and telling him his mother is dead or you want him dead, he will immediatly attack you and the guard will kill him. JamesDC99 17:27, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Delivering the gifts[edit]

What happens if you deliver the gifts? SwedishBerzerker at youtube.com 09:21, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

You get the satisfaction of helping an old woman complete her birthday shopping. --Darth NANAME 09:49, 30 May 2009 (EDT)
In actuality, nothing happens, as you don't have the option to actually deliver the gifts.--Darth NANAME 09:49, 30 May 2009 (EDT)
Oh, so you really can't deliver them, and the giftlist was just a way to give the player the locations... thanks! SwedishBerzerker at youtube.com 11:25, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

The Gray Cowl does not do its job properly?[edit]

I am experiencing a minor issue with killing Caelia. I'm using the Gray Cowl, and I have 100 Sneak unbuffed. I'm perfectly hidden, Caelia doesn't know where I am (usually on top of a house out of sight), but once I've killed her, I wait an hour, take the Cowl off and walk out into the open, a guard runs at me and tries to arrest me for killing her even though I was wearing the Cowl while attacking. Anyone else have the same problem? Or is it just me? --DarkEagle 05:59, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Caelia's sword[edit]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think I nicked all of Caelia's gear I could carry after I whacked her, and then sold it away - sword was among those things. Yet, the sword still appeared on the grave. I'm not sure if the shop inventory was reset between this quest and Following a Lead, but given how lazy I was meantime, I'd say it was likely. So, is it a look-alike sword or the True Sword®? --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 18:10, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you ask the question, as I think you can answer it yourself. It's just an oversight by the developers that you can take away her sword and it would still appear on her grave. Though I believe they felt it was not relevant and they just wanted to decorate her grave with something meaningful. --Timenn-<talk> 11:57, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Previously deceased[edit]

If any of the targets of this quest are already dead when you start it, does that break the quest? 98.211.124.111 06:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Nope it shouldn't; it will just make your task easier. --SerCenKing Talk 18:05, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
You can actually eliminate the entire family before starting the DBH questline. It will just trigger the next Dead Drop once you recieive the second. BrenMan 94 02:53, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Perennia is a speedy tough![edit]

I thought I was being over cautious when I gave her a big sneak attack hit while she was farming. She jumped up demoralized and started running--fast. I hopped on Shadowmere and took off after her full speed. I'll be danged if she didn't outrun Shadowmere! So where did she go? A tavern in Bruma or Chorrol?

Her only objective was to get away from you. Unless she was killed out in the wild, she'll return to the farm within the day. --Arch-Mage MattTalk 23:54, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Journal Entries[edit]

Can somebody fix the Journal Entries? Take a look at the quest Affairs of a Wizard.


The Dead Drop (Dark10SanctuaryFIN)
Stage Finishes Quest Journal Entry
10 According to Lucien Lachance, I will now receive my contracts, as well as any rewards I may be owed, by visiting secret dead drop locations scattered around Cyrodiil. My next contract can be found in a hidden hollow inside the moss-covered rock on the top of Hero Hill, which is to the southeast of Fort Farragut.
100 Finishes quest☑ I have visited my first dead drop location and received my next contract.
Affairs of a Wizard (Dark10SpecialWizard)
10 I have received my new orders from Lucien Lachance. I must go to Leafrot Cave and kill a Necromancer who has begun the process of transforming himself into a lich. This Necromancer, Celedaen, has not yet completed his metamorphosis but is still incredibly powerful -- possibly too powerful to kill if faced directly. I should search the cave for Celedaen's writings, and try to discover his weakness.
20 I have discovered the journal of the Necromancer Celedaen. It appears he has used a magic hourglass called the Sands of Resolve to turn himself into a lich and extend his life indefinitely. The process is not yet complete, however, and the hourglass must remain on Celedaen's person for some time, as it contains his life force. If I could remove the Sands of Resolve from Celedaen's posession, perhaps through pickpocketing, he would surely die.
30 Celedaen is dead. I must pick up my reward and next contract at the dead drop located in an old sack hidden in the bushes beneath the Great Oak, in the city of Chorrol.
100 Finishes quest☑ I have picked up my reward and received my next contract.
Notes
  • Not all Journal Entries may appear in your journal; which entries appear and which entries do not depends on the manner in which the quest is done.
  • Stages are not always in order of progress. This is usually the case with quests that have multiple possible outcomes or quests where certain tasks may be done in random order.
  • If an entry is marked as "Finishes Quest" it means the quest disappears from the Active Quest list, but you may still receive new entries for that quest.
  • On PC It is possible to use the console to advance through the quest by entering setstage quest stage, where quest is the internal name of the quest, and stage is the number of the stage you wish to complete. It is not possible to un-complete (i.e. go back) quest stages. See SetStage for more information.
Prev: The Purification Up: Dark Brotherhood Next: Next of Kin

Now take a look at the Next of Kin.


The Dead Drop (Dark10SanctuaryFIN)
Stage Finishes Quest Journal Entry
10 According to Lucien Lachance, I will now receive my contracts, as well as any rewards I may be owed, by visiting secret dead drop locations scattered around Cyrodiil. My next contract can be found in a hidden hollow inside the moss-covered rock on the top of Hero Hill, which is to the southeast of Fort Farragut.
100 Finishes quest☑ I have visited my first dead drop location and received my next contract.
Next of Kin (Dark11Kin)
10 I have received my new orders from Lucien Lachance. I must kill every member of the Draconis family -- Perennia Draconis, Matthias Draconis, Andreas Draconis, Sibylla Draconis and Caelia Draconis. I know the location of only the family matron, Perennia Draconis, who can be found on the farm known as Applewatch. I should head to Applewatch, find out as much information as I can on the locations of the other family members, and then systematically kill them all.
15 Perennia Draconis has given me a document that lists the locations of all the members of her family. She thought I was the delivery person she hired to buy gifts for her children. I will instead use the list to find and slay each family member. I should start with Perennia herself. Then I must kill Matthias Draconis in the Talos Plaza District of the Imperial City, Andreas Draconis in the Drunken Dragon Inn, Sibylla Draconis in Muck Valley Cavern and Caelia Draconis in Castle Leyawiin.
20 I have obtained a document that lists the locations of all the Draconis family members. I must kill Matthias Draconis in the Talos Plaza District of the Imperial City, Andreas Draconis in the Drunken Dragon Inn, Sibylla Draconis in Muck Valley Cavern and Caelia Draconis in Castle Leyawiin.
30 Every member of the Draconis family has been killed. I must pick up my reward and next contract at the dead drop located in the stone well in the Castle Skingrad Courtyard.
100 Finishes quest☑ I have picked up my reward and received my next contract.
Notes
  • Not all Journal Entries may appear in your journal; which entries appear and which entries do not depends on the manner in which the quest is done.
  • Stages are not always in order of progress. This is usually the case with quests that have multiple possible outcomes or quests where certain tasks may be done in random order.
  • If an entry is marked as "Finishes Quest" it means the quest disappears from the Active Quest list, but you may still receive new entries for that quest.
  • On PC It is possible to use the console to advance through the quest by entering setstage quest stage, where quest is the internal name of the quest, and stage is the number of the stage you wish to complete. It is not possible to un-complete (i.e. go back) quest stages. See SetStage for more information.
Prev: Affairs of a Wizard Up: Dark Brotherhood Next: Broken Vows

They have the same mini-quest. What is the right mini-quest for Next of Kin? --Rigas Papadopoulos Do you need anything? 11:04, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Done. rpeh •TCE 11:49, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Caelia and the poisoned apple?[edit]

will reverse-pickpocketing a poisoned apple to Caelia kill her without getting me a bounty? will she even eat it normally or will i have to get rid of alot of other food? — Unsigned comment by 65.31.222.58 (talk) on 07:35 January 13, 2011 (UTC)

Good idea, but you'll have to pickpocket her grapes from her first, and then put the apple in her inventory. She'll eat in the Three Sisters Inn from 7am. Next thing you've got a dead captain, no bounty on your head either ~ Dwarfmp 08:58, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Her grapes respawn, so you can never remove them from her permanently. rpeh •TCE 09:25, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I thought inventory food of -1 quantity respawns UNTIL you take it from them. So would the grapes even respawn after taking them from her when she's dead? ~ Dwarfmp 09:31, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
It certainly stops after death, but now you mention it, I'm not sure about the pickpocket thing. Needs to be tested. rpeh •TCE 09:34, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Guild Mates![edit]

I know the best way to kill Caelia without getting any bounty! Tell her she has to die, then take her to either the Mages Guild or the Fighters Guild, your guild mates will try to kill her. When they start trying to kill her yield(block + activate) to either Caelia or another gaurd, then you won't get a bounty. But your guild mates won't give in, they'll keep fighting her until she dies, and you'll still get the quest update that YOU'VE killed her! — Unsigned comment by Microbat (talkcontribs) on 30 January 2011

Except you might not be a guild member, plus involving the MG when there are plenty of quest-dependent NPCs there probably isn't a good idea. rpeh •TCE 18:05, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
On the page:
  • Help from Townsfolk: You can also tell her you are going to kill her and run away. Other NPCs, such as townspeople and guild members, will attack her as she follows you.
I've done it too :þ --DKong27 Talk Cont 18:08, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Moved notes[edit]

  • If you have previously killed Perennia (she is a fairly safe way to join the Brotherhood) the gift list will appear on her body when you start this quest.
  • After completing this quest and starting Following a Lead, if you visit Applewatch again and activate Perennia Draconis' Tombstone, you will be attacked by her Ghost. You will also find Caelia's sword standing against her gravestone.
  • The inscriptions on the various gravestones read:
    • Here lies Sibylla Draconis. She died as she lived -- like a beast.
    • Here lies Caelia Draconis, dedicated daughter and noble member of the Leyawiin City Watch. Killed in action.
    • Here lies Perennia Draconis, kind and gentle matron of the Draconis family. May her spirit forever curse the murderer who stole her precious life.
    • Here lies Andreas Draconis, dutiful son and master brewman. May he forever serve Azura in the afterlife.
    • Here lies Matthias Draconis. His mother always told him he'd end up dead if he didn't clean up his life...

I've been pruning the notes as part of a task for the UESPwiki. Feel free to re-add them if you have a just reason. --AKB Talk 16:12, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I've put those ones back. The first one is important, because it might not be obvious to people how to find the note if they can't speak to Perennia. The inscriptions need listing somewhere and this is as good a place as anywhere. rpeh •TCE 16:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
I felt it would be more notable on our Applewatch page. but I won't argue your decision. --AKB Talk 16:36, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
I thought about that, and if people think it's more appropriate, that's fine by me, but since the inscriptions only appear after this quest, I think it's better here. rpeh •TCE 17:10, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Another way of disposing of Matthias[edit]

I'm not putting this on the main page because I'm just not sure of doing that, but in any case, here it is: I followed him to the basment of the Umbacano manor, where I just allowed him to see me until he said he would call the guards if I don't leave. I was pretty desperate at that time so I was curious whether he really will call the guards, or just attack me, and voila! He attacked me, I killed him, no bounty incurred, no penalties. 79.118.100.128 16:11, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion for another note[edit]

Blood Price

I found that when I had both this quest and Ahdarji's Heirloom (thieves guild), killing Caelia counted towards the blood price, even if you have not talked to Ahdarji. Can anyone else confirm this? It might be worth a note on the article. Scroova 03:20, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Caelia, Sybilla and Matthias are all blood price NPCs. See the Ahdarji's Heirloom quest page for details. Kitkat1749 TalkContribE-mail 09:11, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

can't save game after killing Caelia Draconis[edit]

i've killed everyone else in the quest but everytime i kill Caelia Draconis my game will freeze after i save or if the game autosaves. i have the game for xbox so i can't use any console commands. does anyone know what i should ?

Possible Bug[edit]

When dealing with this quest, after I killed the female member of the Draconis family in Leyawiin (the city watch captain, that is) I escaped the guard chasing after me. Once I entered the Inn, an Imperial Legion soldier arrested me and brought me to jail for 30 days (I don't know if the number of days really matters, actually). When I fast traveled to the Drunken Dragon Inn again, I found it was like "ethereal", lacking of consistence, like a no clipping mode was affecting this only structure, but not the rest of the world. — Unsigned comment by 80.181.153.70 (talk)

I'm not too sure there is a fix for it other than reverting to an older save. What system are you on? elliot (talk) 21:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
I used to be on Win7, when this bug occurred. By the way, I didn't care about solving the problem. I just told it so that it can be added to the Bugs section.— Unsigned comment by 95.234.61.240 (talk) on 9 November 2011
It sounds like a one-off bug rather than a regular occurrence. Fast travel usually solves this kind of thing so it's odd you still have the problem, but unless there are other reports of the same thing it's probably not worth adding. rpeh •TCE 14:58, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

An alternate Caelia cheese strat (requires Shivering isle DLC)[edit]

If like me you haven't started making enchants, and you are too far past the level 1 (where the Mythic Dawn spy can kill her) you can still cheese her but it may take a while. First you need to do the Shivering Isles main quest up until the point where you help Syl to gain her favor. I won't spoil her quest here but at the end you'll get the Ruin's Edge, a bow that casts a random spell each time an arrow hit a target. The bow has 20% chance to cast Frenzy. Now with the bow try to hit Caelia at night and save scum until you get the frenzy effect, then run to lure her to some guards. Once the frenzy wears off, quick save then repeat until she gets mauled to death by other guards. If done correctly, and with some luck, you'll only get 80-120 bounty for attacking her but you won't get the kill bounty. Now all you have to do is run away from the city, come back later and pay the ridiculous bounty.

IMPORTANT NOTICE : This method isn't really stable or recommended in my opinion, I just tried that yesterday and turns out it works, and now I'm sharing it in case someone gets into the same situation as me (character with almost no point in enchantment, above level 10) — Unsigned comment by 162.38.197.254 (talk) at 13:39 on 29 July 2021 (UTC)