Shivering talk:Reference Bug

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[edit] Wiki Style

I know we've got some new visitors, users here, so a few tips.

Main page is like an article, not a discussion. Don't sign your contributions there. And if you need to modify existing text to make it flow correctly, go ahead. (E.g., if earlier statement is now wrong, delete it and write about current situation.)
This page however, is a discussion. Add a new section if need be. Also, sign your comments by ending them with this --~~~~ When you save your changes it will autoconvert to your name and the date.
Also, if you're replying to someone else, you should indent like so:

Reply to reply.

However, discussion should mostly be about the article, and NOT a dialog about how awful this is, why Bethsofts sucks/rules. (Otherwise the discussion gets too long.)

Thanks for contributions, and welcome to UESP Wiki. --Wrye 01:31, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] News Posting

Given the severity of this bug, I've taken the unusual step of posting it on the main page. I considered trying to contact devs prior to doing so, but my past experience with this (e.g., the animation bug the greeting bug) is that nothing is done. Were the devs active on the forums, then it wouldn't be necessary to try to contact them through back channels, and we could hope that they're already fixing the problem. Again, that is not the case.

Hopefully, we'll be able to come up with a patch quickly for the PC, but as for XBox users... Recent inaction by Bethsoft are not encouraging. --Wrye 02:37, 8 April 2007 (EDT)

The dev's aren't very active, true, but checking the Moderating Team page I saw that TS7 was on today, so hopefully they are aware of the problem. Don't get your hopes up, though.--Sigaven 14:14, 8 April 2007 (EDT)

I also put big glaring warnings on both the Oblivion:Oblivion page and Shivering:Shivering Isles page. I feel it is warranted, as people really shouldn't play any further if they want to preserve the integrity of their games. --rkMerafel 04:53, 8 April 2007 (EDT)

I sent a formal Email to Bethesda, hopefully they will actually do something Ashakanar

Well i have played A LOT SI on Xbox and i do not want to loose all that played time... an idea is to write to Bethsoft NOW... all of us! That should give them a hint to help us i hope... --DeBrief 19:42, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Well, I think it is obvious that Bethesda knows about the problem by now, and that they're probably checking for quality control more than anything right now. --Ratwar 20:00, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Comments

I was about to Get this game, i am thinking twice of it now. I shall buy it when it's fixed. ^{—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Saruman (talk • contribs).}

Concidering the fact that I have spent HOURS (250+ among different characters) putting together the "perfect game" (saving/loading when I get sigils stones to get the best ones I need, and also doing all that I can to have items that I will be using for the retainer of the game), and now I have spent money on something that could jepordize ALL OF THAT!?!

How could this oversight happen??? How is it that they'd bother even putting it out if it could ruin everying thing that it runs off of?

Also... Shivering Isles clothing has some TERRIBLE clipping issues. My character has long hair, and it cuts through all the collars (making it look stupid).

Is bethesda actually going to make a fix for the 360 ver, or did I spend $30 to permenantly ruin my game?? --69.146.8.142 03:35, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

If you haven't bought it yet, holding off on the purchase seems pretty reasonable. However, progress on the PC patch is very encouraging -- it's almost certainly just a matter of time until the Xbox patch appears. So, if you're already bought it, you could be safe an do other stuff, or you could keep playing until bug appears -- see updated advice in Xbox advice section. Personally, if I had the the Xbox, I'm not sure what I'd do. Might take my own advice to start a completely different character and do stuff my main character never would. E.g., play pure illusionist. --Wrye 14:09, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

"Personally, if I had the the Xbox, I'm not sure what I'd do" - This game is an important part of my life. I know this sounds dorky/obsessive, but I spend 6-10 hours every "day" (I usually play from around 12am - 7 or 8 am) playing this game. I practically live my life IN Cyrodiil. And now, because of the "doomsday" bug brought on by the Shivering Isles, I have lost LITTERALLY 100 hours of game play!!! I lost soo much because I delete the compiled files over time to make saving/loading go more quickly. And because I had deleted the files (save the most current one) before I started my game with the new SI content, My game was then infected and I lost almost EVERYTHING (ring of perfection, over 6 '125 Feather' sigil stones, etc. (and by etc. I mean the list would go on and on and on)).

The GREYMARCH came and wiped me out!!! (((all for the price of $30)))--69.146.8.142 03:16, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Xbox Impact

There was an earlier edit to the article saying that problem had shown up on the Xbox. However, that seems to have been an unrelated error, so it's been deleted. I think that the best place for such investigation is on the official forum. However, if we're missing evidence a non- forum, you might note it here. --Wrye 01:31, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

To the Clearance of the bug on the X-Box by killing the guards: They're set on Auto-Respawn in the CS, so you would have to kill them all few days again... Therefore I'll delete the following sentences: They may be able to get around the problem by killing everybody in the affected areas, but it would prove extremely difficult and the reasoning behind it (that the scripts causing the problem will not work if the people they affect are dead) is untested (so this fix may very well not work). This fix would also help PC users, although they are probably better off with the patch.

Nevertheless we've tried to stop the counter by killing the guards - after some first tests, that doesn't seem to work at all, but we're not 100% sure. Maybe someone could verify that? --TES-Oblivion.de 11:23, 9 April 2007 (MET)

[edit] Unanswered Questions?

Is there a question that's not answered about this? Ask it here, and we'll try to get a response and add it to the article if it makes sense. --Wrye 01:31, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

I'm not very computer savvy, so my question is probably a no-brainer. If I uninstall Oblivion and reinstall it, in order to use the beta patch, will my save games all be gone? I am assuming so, but I don't know for sure.Skyfire 11:26, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

No, your save games should not be deleted. To be completely safe, you can copy all your games to another directory then check after you've finished the reinstall. Also, it's been reported that you can get away without doing a complete uninstall of Oblivion: just rename the file "Oblivion.esm", reinstall Shivering Isles, then install the beta patch (see Oblivion:Patch#Version 1.2.0410 (Beta)). --Nephele^Talk 11:43, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

Thanks!Skyfire 13:23, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

Where I live, I do not have a broadband internet connection so it is impossible for me to access xbox live. I was wondering if there would be anyway to get the patch for the 360 without xbox live. I looked everywhere for a solution, and all hope seems to be lost. If someone could help, it would be greatly appreciated.

No. XBox Live is the only method for getting the patch for the 360. If there's no broadband where you are at, you must take your 360 to somewhere where there is broadband. 72.28.170.64 20:23, 16 July 2007 (EDT)

If you don't have broadband, then you probably don't have SI (downloadable only, right?). And vanilla xbox oblivion w/o SI content won't suffer from the bug. Also GOTY release (scheduled for Sept. 2007) should have the problem fixed in the install. (Assuming that Bethsoft is not braindead enough to release the buggy version of the engine in the GOTY release.) --Wrye 22:19, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] "Bethesda Response" section

I don't like the way the second paragraph of the Response section is done. Reasons: a) the fix is isn't a fix, it's a patch (temporary-ish). b) Not knowing what all else the problem scripts do, we don't know if there might be more problems later. c) The last sentance really isn't that relevant, at least the specifics aren't. Comment, argue, delete, it's all good. -MackStaples 02:02, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

Sorry, should have responded here first. Anyway...

A) I disagree with your definitions here -- most "patches" (in the ES mod world at least) aren't temporary, but rather permanent solutions. E.g., bethsoft's own "patches" are permanent solutions rather than "temporary fixes". Ditto with UOP and other patches.

B) Also, the fix was discussed a bit in the forums with several knowledgeable eyes on it. It's a quite simple and reasonable solution -- didn't look tweaky at all to me. (Say vs. the UOP patch for striking your horse -- the best solution possible at the time, but known to have its flaws.)

C) Last sentence was certainly relevant as the implications are clear -- we really have zero confidence that Bethsoft will fix this problem. The assumption of "until Bethsoft fixes the problem" is unwarranted since they've let major issues slide in the past. This is not speculation, not ranting, but rather experience of almost a year. However, I've added a note that they have repaired other problems in the 1.1 and 1.2 patches. (Although even this is subect to criticism -- e.g., only two patches in one year -- and in fact the 1.2 patch doesn't even touch Oblivion.esm.)

So, this is not a question of "bashing" Bethsoft -- this is just stating the facts. If those facts reflect poorly on Bethsoft, that's nobody's fault but theirs. --Wrye 02:46, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

I like the addition of the last line. And yeah, the definitions were a little off. I was going for less geek-speak and more english. :) But this works. And I definitely didn't mean to imply Dateranoth's patch was tweaky. I was impressed with it. It's not perfect, but it's very good. But, all in all, I guess I'm content. -MackStaples 03:06, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

Updated Beth. Response section for clarification and quote from Bethesda. --Sigaven 18:24, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Questionable

This section for questionable additions to the page...

Reset the Counter? Would it be possible to reset the next formid counter to a valid value (e.g. FF000000)? Probably, but this would almost certainly lead to CTDs and other strange behavior down the road, since it would lead to collisions with existing formids. Actually resetting all the Formids might even remove everything that relied on them (i.e. everything in the game).

Re this last (italics) addition: First, we're talking resetting the next formid counter, NOT resetting the formids -- not the same thing. Second, I don't understand why you think it would remove everything that they relied upon. I don't know of any basis for that speculation. I would expect bad stuff to happen from collisions, but I'm not sure what. --Wrye 04:15, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

Re Xbox repair: They may be able to get around the problem by killing everybody in the affected areas, but it would prove extremely difficult and the reasoning behind it (that the scripts causing the problem will not work if the people they affect are dead) is untested (so this fix may very well not work). This fix would also help PC users, although they are probably better off with the patch.

On the forums the answer I saw for this one is that they would respawn (though this seems a little unlikely to me). Also, it's possible that that the scripts would continue to run even if they're dead. Also due to quest flow, it might be impossible to kill all of them -- i.e., maybe you can only kill one group or the other. However, I haven't checked this myself.--Wrye 04:21, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=674324&view=findpost&p=9724766 Seems like starting a new character without restarting the game doesn't restart the counter. 09:52, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Please help me

sorry to post this here, but im [explicative removed] ive tried downloading the fix but when i open it the construction set comes up and says unable to load ctl file then does nothing, what do i do plesssse help-Dark Knight

First off, don't open the patch. Instead, copy it into your Oblivion/Data folder (if you went through with a normal install, this will be C:/Program Files/Bethesda Softworks/Oblivion/Data). Then click data files in the Oblivion launcher and enable the file. That should help.

Second-please refrain from using explicit or inappropriate language on the wiki. Also, please take the time to type out a full message if you wish to have quicker answers.

Third, please sign your comments with ~~~~, and not just typing a nickname or even username. The four ~ signs will automatically generate a signature, which is useful for other users. --Dylnuge(talk · edits) 18:58, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

As an after note, this is mentioned in the article. Please check the article before posting questions. Thanks again. --Dylnuge(talk · edits) 21:04, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Thank you problem solved(sorry about the F'ing)172.188.172.12 04:48, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Major Rewrite

Just did a major rewrite taking into account news as of earlier today. Tried to simplify some stuff and keep advice closer to the top, but still grouped into Xbox and PC sections. Logically, Diagnosis should be further up, but pushing it down puts more important information at the top, which is probably better. --Wrye 23:34, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] New Save Game?

Has it been confirmed that you can create a "throwaway" save file to play until Bethesda releases a fix? I'm wondering whether the Fbomb will affect all save files. I've stopped playing for now, because I'm very concerned about losing several greatly progressed save files. (BTW, playing on 360) --GuildKnight (Talk) ^contribs 22:45, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

It definitely won't affect any existing save files. Any save files from before installing SI will be completely unaffected. For any save files you have since installing SI, if the bug hasn't appeared yet, they are still basically OK (you have a limited number of hours you can continue to play after loading one of those saves, but that amount of "time left" is already set; playing with another character won't alter the "time left" on your those saves).

And it has been confirmed that as long as you start a completely new game (exit Oblivion completely, restart it, then choose new from the first menu) the counter on that new character starts at 0. So any new character will have the full 150 hours that seems to be available before the bug appears on Xbox. --Nephele^Talk 22:56, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Thanks so much! That's great news... at least I can play a little 'til it's fixed. My problem is that I don't know how much I've played since I downloaded SI, so I'll restrict myself to new characters for now. --GuildKnight (Talk) ^contribs 23:16, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

(EDIT)

Has anyone seen if removing SI from a xbox will affect the glitch meaning removing SI and playing regular oblivion untill a patch comes out

Thats what I did, just to be safe. I deleted shivering isles and rebooted my xbox and made a new character.

[edit] If you get the problem?

Exactly what happens when you get the problem. Oblivion has crashed twice for me now, it says something about a virtual problem blablabla. I have the unofficial bug patch, but I'm still worried, this has never happend to me before... --81.232.125.202 11:30, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

The symptoms are described in Shivering:Reference Bug#Symptoms. Tests that you can do to determine whether or not you have the bug are described in Shivering:Reference Bug#Early Diagnosis and Shivering:Reference Bug#Testing/Repair. If those tests come up negative, then your problems are unrelated to this bug. --Nephele^Talk 14:49, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] comment

"The basis of the bug is that an internal "space" of identification numbers (also called FormIDs) for objects created in the game (e.g., a dropped arrow, a new creature, etc.) becomes exhausted..." - so, did they screw up like how computers used two digits for the year instead of four (99/00 - 1999/2000) and its like Y2K, but for Oblivion (and it actually does set off the apocalypse)??--69.146.8.142 04:07, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] User Question

I am happy that I have not yet installed the Addon. My problem with the above page is the following.

Could please someone add a scction that gives advices to people that have installed Oblivion, but NOT YET installed this Addon. What must they do? Some short explanation would be helpfull. Like:
1. Install the Addon
2. Install this Patch
3. Install this Beta (Addon-Patch)
4. Be happy.

From the above Infos I was not able to find out what to do in the case the Addon is not yet installed, but want to be played (excuse my bad english).
Thanks for this good wiki. I hope someone can help.

Basically, #4. Unless you're planning to play a few thousand hours of Oblivion in the next few weeks (or perhaps have a lot of user-created mods installed), these problems are not going to affect you. When the next official (non-beta) patch gets released, install it and then you can be sure that they will never affect you. --Nephele^Talk 18:38, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Fission not quite mailed...

Lucky the X360 link cable/Ob. Deluxe hasn't came out yet... If it had, all my progress, the painfulness of selling 120 varla stones, 2 at a time, nearly every non-enchanted set of armor and Nearly all the clothes i have would be destroyed... -- and i would be left with my level 3-ish argonian.

[edit] Target Date for Final Patch (PC & XBox 360) set for Monday 30 April 2007

Bethesda's new Community Manager GStaff posted an announcement over on the official forums about them setting a target date for the Final Patch. Because it is the final and not a beta, it will also be going out over XBox Live. Since it wasn't documented here yet, I put a full quote in what seemed to be a logical place for it, and added links to the announcement thread. Maybe it's time to update the "News" box that's on the main page?65.14.2.104 21:10, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

Tried to edit the notice box myself, and found out that notice boxes don't like external links with equals signs in them. Thanks to Deathbane27 and Ratwar for helping to undo and isolate the problem. I'll leave the edits for someone who can get both the box on Shivering:Shivering Isles and Oblivion:Oblivion. 65.14.2.104 22:22, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

I noticed that in the section about Beta Patches, someone had used a bolded "Update:" to call attention to important new information that had been added to the section. Figured it was a good idea to add to my earlier changes to the summary, as that's a section people are likely to just skim over. Also noticed that someone had added April 30th in the section where I'd quoted the post from Bethesda. While the use of square brackets is often used in quoting to set aside things not actually said by the source being quoted, I took it out of italics and grayed it out just to make it explicit that it wasn't part of the direct quote. 65.14.2.104 12:11, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

How Will I know when its out (if it becomes available while I'm playing on my 360), will I get a message on my dashboard, or should I just keep quitting the game and then check for new content? Also... Will it be (through xbox live) available through the oblivion section or "pop up" as a new update like the patches???--Skober 03:34, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] 7:00 MT time: I think its out!!

Just recieved an update (through xbox live) that updated the 1.2 patch to 1.2.1.... so, is this the big fix for the SI!?!?!?!?!?!?!--Skober 09:16, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

It does appear the SI patch is now out:

http://www.bethsoft.com/downloads_01.html

It says users who installed either Beta patch will have to uninstall and reinstall Oblivion before installing this new patch. I wonder, does the same apply to users who used Dateranoth's fix instead, or does that just need to be removed from the Mod list? ^{—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.127.79.8 (talk • contribs).}

If you've installed Dateranoth's patch, you don't need to uninstall and reinstall Oblivion. Dateranoth's patch is compatible with any of the official patches. If you want to, you can remove it from the mod list but removing it from the mod list isn't required. --Nephele^Talk 13:32, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Dateranoth's patch is independent of the uninstall question. (Personally, I would suggest leaving Dateranoth's patch in place. It certainly won't hurt, and it might help peformance somewhat.)

As for uninstall/reinstall... I haven't been following it super-closely, but apparently the final patch is the same as the most recent beta. Probably "uninstall/reinstall" is the simplest answer from a tech support point of view. --Wrye 00:49, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] What NPCs and why?

Maybe it's a bit off-topic, since the article is mostly here to make sure people patch up before their save games go to crap, but I'm curious as to which NPCs were causing the problem and what their scripts were doing that involved going through formIDs so quickly. --67.110.213.253 17:25, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Problem was six guard characters (3 Saints, 3 Seducers, I think) associated with a rank advancement quest. See ESF forum topics for more info. (Dateranoth's fix probably has more info too.) --Wrye 17:36, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Question about patch

I have just installed the "vanilla Oblivion" version of the patch, and I want to get Shivering Isles soon. My question is, Will I need to install the Shivering Isles version of the patch when I get Shivering Isles, or will it still work with my regular one?—Sam324 20:42, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] WHAT?!?!?!?

I have the Xbox 360 version of the game and I am worried about this. I've spent a lot of time on my charcter and I don't want it all to go to waste. How do you download the patch. I have Xbox live, but I looked and couldn't find the patch. Sorry if this question is stupid but someone please answer me, PLEASE!!!! ^{—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.131.11.144 (talk • contribs).}

If you're connected to Xbox Live then the patch is automatically downloaded (one of those messages that comes up when you first turn on the Xbox saying "there is an update for this game"). If you want to make completely sure that you have the patch, check your game's version number (under Options, Video) and confirm that you have version 1.2.1. See Oblivion:Patch#Version 1.2.0416 for more details. --Nephele^Talk 22:37, 28 September 2007 (EDT)

Thank you once again Nephele. ^{—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.131.11.144 (talk • contribs).}

[edit] GOTY?

Is the Reference Bug fixed in the GOTY edition? ^{—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.173.58.219 (talk • contribs).}

It should be. The patch for the bug was released long before the GOTY edition, and the GOTY edition should include all current patches. But since I don't have the GOTY edition myself it's hard to be 100% sure. If you have the GOTY edition, you can always check the game's version (see Patch for details) to confirm whether or not it includes the latest patch. --Nephele^Talk 03:48, 12 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] Is this fixed in the PS3 GotY?

Very sorry for the bother, but I tried looking everywhere and couldn't find a clear answer. I have the PS3 GotY that was released on 10/16/07, however when I go to the options it says it is version 1.0.0. I know not as many people play the PS3 version but I'm worried my game will screw up after a few hundred hours. ^{—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.100.228.143 (talk • contribs).}

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