Skyrim talk:Illusion/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Illusion discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.
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Spell Effects

Most of the effects listed in the Spell Effects section do not exist in Skyrim. In particular, there are no Illusion spells for Charm, Command Creature, Command Humanoid, Frenzy, or Night-Eye. — Unsigned comment by 99.188.122.91 (talk) on 17 November 2011

As Skyrim has just been released and there is a mass of editing going on at the moment, it'll be some time before all the details have been ironed out on the wiki. Feel free to join up as an editor and help add/remove the details you know about. Check out the 'How to Contribute' section on the left under the search bar. —Daniellibus ETC 13:32, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Also some, if not all, of those effects are in game. Night-eye seems to be exclusive to Khajiit, Charm and Frenzy seem to be something like Calm and Fury etc etc.--Dro'Bakha 13:36, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Fury spells provide Frenzy effects. Some of the other things are in, but it's true that according to current lists they are not provided by Illusion spells specifically. Night-Eye, for example, I have only seen in Power guise. 81.233.217.129 14:19, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
On that note, has anyone spotted "Silence" as a castable spell? Callnot 05:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Have not seen silence, but you can use fury or calm like silence to make a mage just go blade only. --Cdevine 04:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the non-existent spells and put those with the same general class of effect but at higher levels on the same line together. Kalevala 04:17, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

"Higher Level Opponents"

Will it be possible to quantify what is meant by "higher level opponents?" These perks could either by incredibly powerful or absolutely useless late-game depending on exactly how many levels they cover and how many enemies scale with player level (e.g. if 80% of new caves scale to player level, then beyond 50 half of the illusion perks might have no effect in new caves). Ruchn 17:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I second this, also for animage perk and "higher level animals" I can't frenzy anything at level 10 it seems and I feel that I should be able to frenzy at my level
By "higher level opponents" I believe it means higher than the quoted spell level. For example: If the spell says Level 6, you might be able to do Level 7 or Level 8 opponents. Higher level is not (or atleast I don't think) make illusion spells effect on people higher level than you, i think it's a way of putting 'makes the spell more powerful', and their the in-game descriptions anyway. --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 09:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
If you pick up the Illusion Dual-Casting perk and dual-cast Fury, it will work on higher level things as well. Illusion potions will also help. I will try to play around with the console and see if I can quantify the effects of these spells (assuming I can figure out what level a given NPC is). Anecdotally, dual-casted Fury with no level-increasing perks is useful well into the 20s, as there are always some lower level bandits or whatever mixed in to mess around with. Aetryn 17:57, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
The "Rage" perk definitely adds +12 levels to Fury. It shows up on the spell description as level 18 instead of level 6. The Kindred Mage perk adds either 10 or 11 levels to the effectiveness of Fury (I was unable to find a level 17 NPC to test on). The perks stack, and I was able to land Fury on a level 28 NPC with both (but not on a level 30, and again, unable to find a level 29 NPC). Animage appears to add 8 or 9 levels, as (without Rage), I could land it on a level 14 Giant Frostbite Spider (checked via the console, there is also a level 17 variant), but not on a level 16 cave bear. I could not locate a level 15 animal. With both perks, you can handle anything I could find flagged as a creature (highest is Ice Troll at 22?). Also note that while you can target Draugr if you have Master of the Mind, they are neither animal/creatures nor people, so neither Animage nor Kindred Mage applies. Rage still works though. Dragons are never targetable by Illusion magic no matter what level they are or perks you have.
More Illusion Test Data (from console, spawning various level NPCs and testing spells). This is only for NPCs (as if creatures truly cap out at 22 there's no need for extensive testing). Player level has no effect.
Max Casting Level Test Results (DC = Dual Casted)
Spell Base Level Kindred Mage Effect-specific perk Both DC, no perks DC, Kindred Mage DC, Effect-specific DC, Both
Fury 6 16-17 18 28-29 13 34 38-39 51+
Calm 9 19 16-17 27 19 36-37 at least 40 (top end up unknown) 51+
Fear 9 28-29 19 36-37 40-43 51+
Frenzy 14 24
Pacify 20 51+
Some observations: for single casting, it looks pretty simple - +10 levels for Kindred Mage, +8 for Hypnotic Gaze, +10 for Aspect of Terror, and +12 for Rage. The latter three are reflected in the spell description. Dual cast appears to slightly more than double the level (which is consistent with what it does for Oakskin - it takes a 60 second spell and turns it into 130ish seconds). However, the doubling+ happens AFTER the base level is changed by the perks, even for Kindred Mage where it isn't visible in the tooltip. This means that a low level Fury can affect any NPC in the game when dual-cast when dual cast with both Kindred Mage and Rage.
Do we want to put a table like this on the main page once the remaining data points get filled in? Aetryn 23:36, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Further note - some enemies seem to have partial resistance to Illusion. A DualCasted Calm spell with all perks on a level 38 Falmer Shadowmaster was seen as "too powerful", while the same spell worked on a level 50 guard. A Dualcasted pacify spell with all perks did work on the level 38 Falmer Aetryn 00:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
I entered Kilkreath Ruins (The Break of Dawn quest) with a level 61 character with all relevant points in Illusion and no points in restoration. I was also not a vampire. I could NOT dual-cast Frenzy the Corrupted Shades. A 25% Illusion potion did help. --145.94.200.171 06:16, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
I am in favour of adding a table like this and completing it. Might as well add the Vampire Champion of the Night bonus. 95.206.19.208 13:03, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
So, all in all, does this mean that Illusion can become completely useless at higher levels? That's... Really dumb. I don't know how enemy levels increase, but if it's anything like Oblivion, then a mage who reaches high levels will suddenly have no use for Illusion spells if that's the case. Someone please tell me I'm wrong. Even if it's possible, it seems like it rules out being able to have it as a secondary sort of thing. It sounds like you couldn't really get much out of say, an assassin with a dagger in one hand and some illusion spell in the other. You'd have to focus on it greatly to stop it from become obsolete the moment your enemies out-level it, right?--Lovless510 14:33, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
If you are not willing to invest perks in Illusion then it will become much less useful at higher levels (due to how the levelled lists work, you will still encounter some eligible targets, but you will probably be capable of defeating them without the aid of Illusion anyway). If you are willing to invest perks in Illusion, then it is still powerful and useful at higher levels (and can, in fact, affect pretty much anything in the game). A reasonable build is Novice-Expert Illusion, Dual Casting, Hypnotic Gaze, Aspect of Terror, Rage, and Master of the Mind (9 perks) if you interested in all 3 "major" effects. This will allow you to affect anything not immune to illusion in the game with a dual-casted Frenzy, Pacify, or Rout. You can pare this down a few perks if you are only intending to use it against NPCs and/or don't care about all three types of effect. In any case, if you're willing to Dual-cast, you should try not to waste picks on Animage and Kindred Mage, as they only help you for a bit in the midgame (before you get Rage, and Expert level spells, essentially).
A single-handed build is harder to make viable. You cap out at 14+12+10 = 36 for Frenzy, 20+8+10 = 38 for Pacify, and 20+10+10 = 40 for Rout. This is enough to affect all bandits (that stop at 30 or so) and creatures of the wild, but high-level Forsworn, mages, and vampires will tend to be in the 40-54 range. Since those are the most interesting targets for Illusion, it tends to be less useful. You probably need to be a Vampire yourself (for the +25% cumulative bonus to Illusion) and carry a stock of Illusion potions to get the very hardest targets. You also have to pick up Animage (which is pretty useless, since no animals are high enough for the bonus to matter much), and Kindred Mage, so your net perk count ends up being 9 (or 10 with Master of the Mind to include vampires and undead).
Partial perk builds in Illusion are fairly useless - only good if you are planning to develop better long-term options and want Illusion solely for early defense/crowd control. In any case, don't sell short the effects. Frenzy is enormously powerful - even if the enemy you frenzied continues to attack you, odds are one of the other enemies will start attacking the frenzied enemy since they see it as a threat. Combined with stealth, you can whittle rooms down to a single enemy before they even see you. Aetryn 19:24, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
It's not useless because most enemies only scale up to 50, aside from Briarhearts and some others. Even if you are lvl 81, most enemies you'll find will be 30-40. And the master spells have one great perk; their area of effect. Enter a dungeon, walk some 10 meters and cast a Mayhem spell, and probably every enemy in that dungeon that can be affected by the spell, will.
Using the master spells practically at all requires 5 perks invested in Illusion to halve the cost. Yes, you can reduce costs to 0 with 4 enchantments at 100 skill, but I'm assuming you aren't grinding that to 100 immediately and want to be able to use Illusion in the midgame. Or you just have something more interesting to do with your enchantment slots (you have fewer enchantment slots than perk points). The spells will affect everything up to level 25, which at 50+, will be basically all bandits and animals and a handful of other things that happen to scale low. If you want to carry around a stock of Illusion potions, that's probably fine (you can easily get up to 50+), and the ingredients for Illusion potions are reasonably common - of course this requires 6 or 7 perks in Alchemy, but those can be sometimes useful for other skills. Otherwise, you need to invest at least 3 more perks to get Hypnotic Gaze, Aspect of Terror, and Rage to reach into the 35ish range (Kindred Mage is another possibility for one less perk, but Falmer are not considered Kindred, so it doesn't apply, so we're down to high level mages and forsworn if we go that route). Now we're up to 8 perks. That's well beyond what I meant by "partial perk build" (3-4 perks). Compare Conjuration, which gets you cheap, reasonably durable Frost Atronachs with 3 perks and no enchantments, or Restoration, which gives you good healing spells for 4 perks (Adept Restoration and Regeneration). You can fit either of those into a mostly-some-other-skill-focused build that has room for some tactical options. It's a lot harder in Illusion to make a 3-4 perk build that doesn't use any enchantments that's actually useful mid-game on. Aetryn 01:54, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Does fortify Illusion (from either potions or equipment enchants) lower the resist chance? 92.118.183.145 00:59, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, potion make your spells work on higher level opponents. (Resisting is based on the mobs lvel and the level that your spell "works on".

Also note that the restoration perk necromage increases the level of undead mobs that your spells work on. 69.143.61.223 22:37, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Bugs

Aspect of Terror perk doubles the damage destruction fire magic deals, tested it out with console in a quest to figure out how to scale destruction damage. I would assume the other 2 perks would do the same for shock and frost spells, although I did not test those out.

Highest damage for Flames spell I achieved with console editing perks and stats was 27 per second for 4 mana (max destro tree, Aspect of Terror, 100 destruction). Things to note also is that character level does nothing for destruction as the stats didn't change at all when I made the character level 50 from lvl 1. Magicka amount also does not matter.

Hardly double. Most reports are either around 25 % or a flat number. Note that a flat number seems consistent with varying reported percentages. 81.233.217.129 13:53, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

@ above: It depends on the spell. Flames with all perks (Sans aspect of terror) does 12 Dmg/S. With Aspect of Terror, it's dealing 27 Dmg/S. Tested on 360.

Do you mean that the numeric increase depends on the spell, or that the percentage increase depends on the spell? If numeric, that hints at a percentage. If percentage, that hints at a flat number. 95.206.3.238 13:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
It adds 10 damage, which is then being increased 50% by augmented flames.--41.132.180.110 14:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Vampirism +25% bonus to Illusion spells

A nice addition to this page would be a clarification of the "25% more powerful" bonus to Illusion spells which is granted to Vampires.

Is this 25% bonus applied to the max level your illusion spells will work against? If so, is this bonus applied to the base level, ie for Fury this value is 6, so being a Vampire changes that value of base level to 7? Or is the bonus applied to the value after perks have been applied to the base value?

Or does it change the duration of spells? Or the range? Or the chance of being resisted (if such a thing exists in Skyrim)? Or some combination of these things?

184.58.10.245 06:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)Kelvik

Testing confirms the bonus is applied to max level. My tooltip in Illusion shows the base values for Fear, Calm, and Fury as 11, 11, and 7 respectively, as a Vampire with no perks in Illusion. Durations do not appear to be changed, as Muffle's duration is still listed at 180. I then purchased the +Calm perk and the max level for Calm now is shown as 21. That gave me +10, as opposed to the +8 listed by a previous tester who I assume was not a Vampire. So it seems the +25% bonus is applied to your total max level value, after perks are calculated in.

Kelvik 13:29, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Potions, which have a similar "50% more powerful for 30 seconds" do NOT apply their bonus to perks (you get 50% of the base level of the spell). Example: Fury's base level is 6. With a Draught of Illusion (50% for 30 seconds), it's level is 9. With rage (+12), it's level is only 21, not the 27 you would have expected. This makes potions of illusion fairly situational (probably only for the Master spells that can't be dual-casted). I haven't tested how potions interact with dual-casting, as that's harder to set up. 24.20.180.1 17:52, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
In my first sight, I thought this "Potion Effect" is trying to correct what Kelvik said on Vampire's effect. But it turns out they are two different statements. Champion of night applies after perks, and potions apply before perks. Am I right? 72.193.0.57 02:59, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Notes that are just discussing the skill go here

Moving most of notes section here because it is opinion on use of the skill

Courage and Muffle can be trained outside of combat to quickly level up illusion. This can be used in combination with the wait function to instantly recharge mana. Getting to 100 skill like this takes 5-10 minutes. To avoid waiting, obtain the massive mana regen buff by completing the Out of Balance quest given by Drevis Neloren in the College at Winterhold. With this buff active you can cast Muffle in both hands and by the time the cast animation is finished your mana has fully recharged, easily maxing Illusion in the two hour window of the buff. Clairvoyance, on the other hand, is not good for quick leveling, as it raises your Illusion skill very slowly.

Using Calm in one hand and a destruction spell in the other hand is an effective way to clear strong enemies early like bears. Charge both up, then release the destruction spell slightly before Calm. Alternatively you can use a bow and switch to calm, but the delay between the creatures reaction and your Calm is higher.

Calm is also a better early choice than fear for low level mages. A feared enemy will run further into a dungeon normally unleashing all the enemies until it hits a closed door. You can easily get ten or more enemies, especially bandits, to become hostile and aware of your location.

Illusion is very effective when combined with a stealth play style.

--Lord.Baal 19:26, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, using calm in one hand and having a one handed weapon in the other allows you to quickly train up sneak.
A successful backstab with a melee weapon is the fastest way to level sneak, giving one skill point per successful stab at low to mid skill level in sneak. Enemies that are calm are easily snuck up behind. Simply backstab them, then immediately cast calm.
Also, when all enemies in the area are calm, you are no longer in combat mode. This means your magicka regen is much higher and usually will fully replenish itself before the calm effect wears off. You can simply wait til your magicka is full for another stab/calm combo.
--Berserkenstein 16:16, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Using Muffle everywhere you go levels Illusion ridiculously fast. Having the skill at 25-40, it seemed every cast leveled it by one. (with Lover's Stone active) BMFPoochie 08:40, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Does Invisibility Do Anything?

I was quite excited when I finally got my Illusion skill up high enough for this spell to be offered, but in all my testing so far, it does *nothing* other than make your character "seem" invisible. However, this doesn't appear to actually have any effect, as things like sneaking and pickpocketing are no easier, and random enemies still spot and attack me while invisible, even if I'm sneaking. It seems like this could be a bug, as Invisibility did quite a bit more in Oblivion. 209.66.120.3 18:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure how well it is supposed to work but I was also heavily disappointed in the spell. I do notice it helps when sneaking to avoid detection and to run away and cast to have them not require you as a target. I would guess the developers realized how great it was in Oblivion to be able to cast at any time and decided to nerf the skill heavily in Skyrim.--Lord.Baal 22:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
NPCs in the game have the ability to hear your character as well as see it. Performing actions that make noise (such as running vs. walking, swinging a weapon, or casting a spell) will alert them to your presence, even if you are invisible. If you are looking for ways to be quieter, try increasing your sneak skill, consider the muffle enchantment, or look into related perks such as Silent Casting from the Illusion skill, or the Silence and Muffled Movement perks from the Sneak skill. Chunk of Ham 22:28, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Weird- I could swear I was sneaking (and being quiet). But what's the point, then? If it only works when you're already "invisible," so to speak, I don't know what use it has. Between this and the loss of Charm, and the low level caps requiring perks to raise, Illusion has suffered *greatly* in Skyrim. 209.66.120.3 20:03, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Even if you're being 100% silent, sneaking into an NPC's field of view will alert them to your presence. If you're invisible and 100% silent, you can sneak right in front of people's faces and they won't notice. P.S. The comment that they can also smell your character was a false edit - not by me. Chunk of Ham 05:03, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
It's worse than that. I tested it multiple times with one of my character who got 100 in Sneak, and I'm pretty sure people detect me faster when I'm invisible than when I'm not. They do, however, run around trying to find me afterward, instead of attacking. But overall, the spell is a huge disappointment. 82.243.194.53 17:53, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't consider invisibility to be underpowered at all. In Oblivion it was a get out of jail free card, which WAS overpowered. In Skyrim, it's one half of a get out of jail free card - the other half being boots with the "muffle" enchant. Being muffled while invisible makes you completely undetectable to all enemies, low level or high, in any environment, dark or sunny. As long as you don't break the invisibility or physically walk into an enemy, you are the wind. Consider how easy it is to find/make boots with the muffle enchant (all you need is a petty soul gem and some spare boots). Now consider that this combination is in many ways more powerful than having 100 sneak skill.173.173.90.205 09:53, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

() Wearing shrouded boots, which have constant effect muffle, and just cast the muffle spell on myself. (Both were active, I checked). Cast invisibility, which for some reason is loud enough to wake the dead. A bunch of bandits come running. While in sneak mode, I move out of the way, and I get detected. After getting detected, they ran around stupidly trying to find me, while the sneak eye started close. Invisibility might make you harder to spot, but it definitely doesn't make you truly invisible. There was no way they should have seen or heard me, but they did. I do not know if this is a bug or intentional. Chris3145 22:34, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Even with silent casting perk ?--Gaija 21:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
No silent casting. It's not unusual that they hear the spell. What doesn't make sense is that even though I've moved since I cast the spell, they still find me when they come to investigate the sound. Then it's sort of a toss up. They'll lose track of you fairly quickly, but if you're close enough for them to run up and hit you before then, then they'll know where you are and they'll keep hitting you. Chris3145 23:53, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, yes , that's kind of irrealistic... It seems that if you get detected by doing any action while not invisible , becoming invisible won't change ennemies perception , so they will still know what's the source of " what made you detected" . And "any action" apparently includes casting the invisibility spell itself. So i guess this problem would be fixed if you had silent casting perk ...--Gaija 07:57, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
I cast the spell in one corner of the room. While invisible, muffled, and sneaking I move to a different corner of the room. They immediately find me when they enter the room. Invisibility doesn't work completely. I think it may be more like 90% chameleon or something. I've had several instances where enemies find me or don't lose track of me for a while, but if the eye is completely closed and nobody is looking for you, I don't think anyone will spot you. Chris3145 16:59, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
I was increasingly frustrated with this as well. I am going to post this on the front page. If you have an equipped spell, the light itself from the spell increases your chance to become detected. I have tested this out many times and can post screenshots if necessary. Even with all sneak perks (silence, muffle, stealth 5/5), invisibility, and sneak at 100. The light from the spell increases your chance of detection. This is best tested by wearing a shield instead of a spell in your left hand and sneak attacking. If you roll away (assuming you have roll) you can avoid being caught and sneak attack again. Aeonex 05:04, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
This works both ways. I had a vampire go invisible on me, and I didn't have detect life. Luckily there were these 2 glowing purple balls at hand height moving along the wall, trying to get behind me. His readied spells made his invisibility pointless. NFR 21:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

() I don't think holding a spell has anything to do with it. That's what I thought at first, but I've been detected my spells/weapons sheathed, and I've sneaked past people while I have spells out. Chris3145 18:25, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

My character can't cast invisibility, so I can't comment on the spell. The effect of invisibility (from potions) seems to work quite well, but not quite in the way I thought it would. I'm posting this here so that people can compare and contrast casting the spell to drinking a potion, and hopefully narrow down what's caused by spellcasting vs the peculiarities of invisibility in this game.

If I've been spotted, and I drink a potion and don't stealth, they run to where I've been and if they pass me close enough, they zero in on me. If I do stealth (100% muffle) and move at all, they stop combat, but the eye stays fully open. Unless they bump into me, they have no idea where I am, but they know for certainty that I'm there, and sometimes they blunder about looking for me.

I think "Hidden" is a misnomer. I'm both hidden from them and detected. The game uses "Hidden" as a shortcut in saying "They believe no one's there." The eye stays fully open even though they have no idea where I am, and any attacks get all of the surprise bonuses. I suspect that the muffle perk (and maybe the spell effect) only works while you are sneaking.

Moving (while stealthed) is essential because if they bump into you, you're detected no matter what (and if you're trying to avoid a circling dragon, you'd better move quite a bit in case he lands where he saw you last.

While invisible and stealthed, you can safely drink a few potions followed by another invisibility potion without risk of detection. However, if you drop invisibility while the eye is still full (relying on just stealth) you will be found almost immediately (anyone can spot a visible, crouching thief if they know he's there, stealth relies on them not looking too closely)

Based on this (and the above reports), it sounds like there are serious problems (or downright bugs) using the spell. But invisibility is tricky to use effectively all by itself, and I'd hate for someone to use it poorly and consider it bugged and worthless. I apologize for the length of this. Would you believe I only intended to add a line or two when I opened this up for editing? NFR 18:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

My character is all maxed out together with perks and boots and invisibility is a big disappointment. Especially running away from battle. NPC will notice you 2 meters away, invisible or not.

OP here. After *much* playtesting, I have deduced that Invisibility is NOT worthless- it's just incredibly nerfed compared to Oblivion.
Muffle, oddly enough, provides quite a bit more undetectability. I always wear boots with a Muffle enchantment,
and I can frequently sneak right up to an opponent's *front* and still get the backstab damage bonus from being undetected, or steal things in someone's line of sight without getting caught.
So basically, Muffle is Skyrim's Invisibility. Give it a try. 209.66.120.3 23:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
It's definitely related to quiet casting. Without quiet casting, I seem to remain "findable" for 5-10 seconds after casting. Now that I have quiet casting, I never get spotted while invisible. It is not related to held spells at all. Chris3145 15:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

On Master difficulty, Invisbility is a godsend. After I upped the difficulty on my assassin, he was getting discovered way too often. Decided I would re-roll a mage and play Master from the start. I decided to go Illusion because it seemed the most interesting. I completed the Dark Brotherhood because I <3 Shadowmere and the easy 1k contracts are always nice. Muffle boots, quiet casting, backstab gloves + invisbility, its just like playing my assassing on Adept. Casting mayhem at the start of a dungeon then just running through invisbile slitting the throats of the champs is waaay faster than sneak-rolling the whole thing. Its no Oblivion invis, but it sure as sht is a Master difficulty miracle.

Are Master spells useless?

if you invest highly in illusion perks you get to a point were dual casting spells will effect enemies past level 50 easily. but the master spells are stuck in the mid 30's or the 40's if you are a vampire. is my calculation correct here? are the master illusion spells a waste of money since you cannot dual cast them and need to relay on vampirism and potions to use them effectively?

That's neither a waste of money nor a waste of perks. All Humans but the toughest will be affected by master spells (mayhem is up to lvl 47 with full perk tree, wich is not so bad!). And since you rarely have to fight against a ton of these toughest ones in the same time, those will be really easy to strike with a dual-cast pcify/rout/frenzy (all tree, while dual-cast, will be able to affect all ennemies in the game except dragons). Now, if you want to make your master spells more effective (wich could be necessary) against tough undeads and tough humans, you might want to drink a potion, and a well-brewed potion with a few perks in alchemy will be able to make them significantly more useful, IMHO. Just keep in mind that you won't have to face tons of ennemies that resisted your master spells ; those can be easily hit by rout/pacify/frenzy spells. Well I must admit that I'm kind of curious to know what could be the best illusion potion you can brew with the alchemy/enchant process ... anyone who knows the best magnitude ? --Gaija 16:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
IMO, unless you need the significantly increased area of effect, the dual-cast Adept/Expert are both more flexible (since you can cast them at a far away target or the ground at your feet if you do want a point blank AoE), generally cheaper (Rout vs Hysteria being an exception), and don't involve the ridiculously slow casting animation. You also, obviously, have the option of single-casting them for a fairly strong effect against enemies that are affected by Kindred Mage.
The purpose of my message wasn't to say that master spells are the best ones, cause everyone knows that the casting animation make them really ... less flexible , as you said, than regular spells ; i just intended to say that they aren't useless. IMO, the real question is, with enchated illusion magicka cost reduced to 0 ( solve the magicka problem) , and with a well-built potion ( solve the level problem) , the only two things to take in consideration are both casting time ( master spells worse, of course ) and either AOE or Range ( IMO, master is by far better in a sticky fight) : so then , wich is more effective ? I think that these master spells could become really appreciable : IMO, pacify/rout /frenzy won't be better because of their range . Indeed, master spells do have a large AOE , and just in case you are still to far, ennemy will come to you while you already begin to cast the master spell. While in melee, AOE becomes significantly more effective than range, IMO, and you can avoid being stopped while casting master spells by increasing your armor rating, wich will decrease stagger. Just imagine, while ennemies are rushing straight to you, you have already begun to cast your spell. You unleash harmony in front of a whole bunch of ennemies, then you're absolutely free to either take your time and prepare blizzard, fire storm, mass paralysis, mayhem or even hysteria ,or sneak kill them one at a time. IMHO, adept expert spells won't become much more valuable unless you're facing 1-2 guys, or while really far from a target that hasn't detected you yet. But I agree with you , most of the time, expert spells could do the trick, but when a master spell manages to fulfill a different role than those of expert spells, then master spells become kind of lethal ... --Gaija 21:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Just checked the potions question, +98% alchemy from gear +23% falmer helm + all perks in alchemy. dwarven oil + taproot = 133% better illusion spells. i don't know if that is the best potion but it's the best i managed. all relevant perks in illusion = frenzy 26 -> 44 pacify 28 -> 54 rout 30 -> 56. harmony 33 -> 66 Hysteria 35 -> 68 mayhem 37 -> 70.
-Illusion Mayhem Master Spell does not work against Markath Guards when youre level 82. Funny thing is, with all perks maxed out for illusion, the only working 'mayhem' for them is a dual cast 'frenzy'.This is ridiculous as frenzy is not the master level spells that also uses both hands to cast.
The long casting time of master illusion spells is made rather insignificant with the become ethereal shout. Become ethereal isn't cancelled until you unleash the spell. --Berserkenstein 20:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

() Master level illusion spells seem inferior to a dual-cast expert spell in every single way. The master spells are weaker, slower to cast, can't be used at range, and require more magicka. I would say that they are useless if anything that can be done with the master spells can be done better with other spells that easier to obtain. However, the master spells launch things everywhere if you cast them in somebody's house, and that can be kind of fun. Chris3145 15:54, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok so people usually whine about two problems concerning illusion master spells : level cap and long casting time. With become ethereal shout, paralysis, slow time shout , even just a good armor rating ( since i've never seen a mage that is able to stagger you with spells yet ) , invisibility, or just the fact that you manage to outrange ennemies , casting time isn't that boring anymore. While under the effects of a potion or being a vampire with necromage perk, you could just affect anyone in the game at least with mayhem, since even lv53 vampires will be affected cause of necromage. Now these two problems are solved, let's figure out that master spells does have an amazing area of effect , so wide that you will rarely have to need expert's spells possible extra range, altough being able to affect almost a whole dungeon floor is apprecialbe. Besides, aiming someone that is out of the master's spells range with an expert spell is really difficult ; with a master spell , you never have to worry about aiming, and that's another thing i personnaly like ...

Fear Enchantment + Master of the Mind = Fear + Turn Undead Enchantment?

If I have Master of the Mind, does the fear enchantment work on undead, daedra, and automatons, or is it just the Illusion spells that do that? --StTheo 15:16, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I will try it out --139.153.52.33 19:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
just tried and .... Didn't work , sadly --Gaija 22:01, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Fear

The spell list mistakenly says that Altmer start with the Fear spell, when it's actually Fury they get. Dunno how to correct this. . . 75.47.107.236 10:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. Thank you for reporting it! Robin Hoodtalk 17:17, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Quiet casting

Probably it is worth mentioning that Quiet Casting perk also affects Shouts.


First: Is it actually impossible to sneak attack with a spell, or am I just doing it wrong? Second: Will the "Quiet Casting" perk let you sneak attack with spells?

You don't get any bonus damage if attacking with spells while hidden. Also, starting combat with a spell (as I do very frequently with Frenzy) will open "the eye" a bit, regardless of anything.
Okay, thank you.

Leveling

Muffle seems to provide a great deal more skill experience than Invisibility. Sitting in Whiterun marketplace with 4 pieces of 25% fortify alteration gear equipped (therefore letting me cast all day with no downtime) and the lover stone buff, it took 13+ casts of muffle to get from one level to the next in the 80's. It took 21+ casts of invisibility. Obviously subsequent levels took more casts for both but muffle got me levels about 33% faster despite Muffle being an apprentice skill and invisibility being an expert skill. This is probably worth mentioning on the front page in the notes section.

Vision of the Tenth Eye

I just wanted to point out that this spell is usable as a kind of night vision. It's easier to find stuff in a big dark cave when you pop it. It's a long dual-hand cast, but if you want EVERYTHING to be lighter it's better then the alteration light spells. 145.94.200.171 05:05, 21 January 2012 (UTC)


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