Skyrim talk:Ulfric Stormcloak

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Archive 1: Nov. 2011 - Aug. 2012

duel

from what i have been told, by him, and a few loyal nords, Ulfric challenged The High King to a duel, which is a tradition of some sorts for the nords, and used the voice during the duel, finishing him off with his sword (straight from his mouth), the empire only defined it as illegal because it was the high king and it was in a imperial area, who have no respect for nord customs. (Eddie The Head 00:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC))

The whole thing is not as simple as it may sound. Empire has respect for customs of each province, otherwise they would stamp out for example Tribunal in Morrowind. The point is that even Nords themselves are divided on who Ulfric really is. Some see him as a hero while others see him as a power hungry fanatic blaming him for the start of civil war and racial tensions in Skyrim ("Skyrim only for Nords"). Ulfric is also a former legionary. Listen to what Alvor has to say, for example. --Arkhon 22:21, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The Empire couldn't simply "stamp out" the Tribunal because Tiber Septim made a deal with the Tribunal in exchange for the Numidium, as part of the the Armistice of 2E 896. While Ulfric is viewed differently by different people, the actual challenge that he invoked against Torygg was part of Nordic tradition, which is why Torygg was compelled to accept the challenge - as Sybille Stentor addressed, he would have risked losing his throne in a new Moot had he refused Ulfric's challenge. Lobsel Vith 19:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

n Sovenguard the high king says he kept his honor in the duel, and can, "Ulfric say the same?" One might also note that Ulfric was caught outside of Pale Pass, one of the few ways in or... out of Skyrim.

Ulfric was ambushed at Dark Water Crossing not Pale Pass. Ulfric was traveling toward Windhelm or Riften possibly Falkreath when he surrendered with his party. I don't know whether we are told where Ulfric was heading specifically. The original plan was to take him to the Emperor for execution but General Tullius decided to execute him quickly rather than risk a counterattack and rescue, so they were going to chop him in the town of Helgen (without much ceremony for a Jarl if you ask me).

From speaking with Ulfric, Elisif, and Sybille (Solitude Court Wizard), one can get a pretty clear picture of what happened. The Solitude court believed Ulfric had come to petition the court and the High King to declare independence from the Empire. Skyrim was becoming more and more divided over the Talos ban. The High King was younger than Ulfric and respected his counsel. Some believe Ulfric could have convinced Torygg to declare independence. Instead, Ulfric issued a challenge in the ancient Nord tradition. This tradition stated that if the High King were challenged to an honorable duel for the crown of High King, he had two options: accept and fight to prove his right as High King or refuse which gave the challenger a right to call a new Moot to name a new High King.

Conditions: We don't know if the duel had to be to the death. We don't know if the new Moot had to choose a different High King or could reaffirm the former's claim.

Torygg was stung in his Nord honor and without any consultation of the court made his decision immediately to meet the challenge [a true Nord could make no other decision and save face]. Ulfric proceeded to use Unrelenting Force to throw Torygg to the ground and ran him through the heart with his sword. When the court "awoke" to the events, they set the guards upon him. Ulfric fled through the gates even as the guards commanded they be shut. Roggvir instead opened the gates allowing Ulfric to ride forth. [Roggvir affirms his decision was not wrong since the guards would have imprisoned Ulfric unjustly for winning the traditional duel.]

Most of the animosity over the duel comes from the "honorable" and "fair" sector. Ulfric was known to be in his prime with the power of the thu'um. To use the thu'um in a duel was an overwhelming advantage. He didn't even wait for Torygg to get up or yield before killing him. The mere speed of which Ulfric dispatched Torygg was an obvious statement not of honorable combat, but retribution against an unjust Empire and its "puppet king" whom Torygg represented to the growing dissidents of Imperial rule chafing under the White-Gold Concordant. Torygg's oft quoted estimation of the weighted duel was he faced death bravely, but can Ulfric say the same? Certainly Ulfric in making the challenge knew he risked little against his outmatched opponent. Balgruuf makes his assessment "because he knew that he could." Ulfric himself admits desiring to send a message to all the Jarls showing how weak Skyrim had become and the need for a strong leader--presumably in himself. "How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim if he can't even defend himself?"

The shock the court felt also imparts how disconnected they were from all the battles Ulfric and other Imperial veterans had fought in the name of the Empire. They were obviously used to flowering courtyards not battlefields. Life and death situations are more gruesome than chivalric. After dungeon-raiding against ancient deathlords, I would never say a thu'um death was a dishonorable one (and Torygg knew he died courageously if ignominiously). Nonetheless, Ulfric had complete control of the duel and likely as not did not need to kill Torygg to prove his point.

The next issue with the duel comes from the legal sector. The Nords had accepted by this time of their own volition the procedure of naming High King by the Moot. The High King having to defend his throne against every barbaric challenger was a tradition of ancient times long past. What the challenge represented was the wounded heart of Nordic Skyrim bleeding for her traditions (that were less barbaric like Talos worship). The national identity was being threatened by the Thalmor statutes of the White-Gold Concordant and the "marriage" with the Empire was falling apart creating divisions and rifts where there formerly were none.

The flip-side of the legal issue was that the Moot for a long time was merely a formality and not a true election process of Nordic Jarls and Thanes anymore. Essentially, the Moot was "fixed" and the Jarl of Solitude was chosen as High King/Queen automatically. The Empire had approved of this method and sanctioned it for many years. Skyrim didn't seem to mind this system until people became restless with the leadership. There became calls for a true High King elected in the traditional way (not necessarily by challenge but by a real Moot). This is why Ulfric does not want to allow the Moot until "Skyrim is free" from Imperial control. Otherwise, the Empire can "buy" the candidate of their choice and fix the election process keeping Skyrim's leadership pliant and weak instead of strong-willed and self-reliant.

On top of these legal matters is the High King's decision itself. The High King accepted an outdated traditional duel for his throne. So in a strange sense, he legalized the proceedings including his own death as a possible outcome. Traditionally, this makes Ulfric High King by right-of-arms. However, Ulfric pays homage to the modern and traditional times by desiring the Moot to convene to name him High King (or possibly another--but they'd probably all be too scared).

Nowhere does it state that the widow or widower of a High King/Queen automatically becomes the successor. This is the Empire-influenced method of simply placing the Jarl of Solitude on the throne. As the widow, she has been named the Jarl for Solitude by her own court; and by an Imperial-controlled Moot, she would be ushered into the position of High Queen as a formality. This process eliminates any self-governance or Skyrim input outside of Solitude's court. In the restless times, people were wanting a real Moot. This was impossible under Imperial control. 75.229.74.137 07:31, 3 November 2012 (GMT)

Image

Somebody should change that image as himself sitting at the throne... Its a spoiler for ppl that have not played the game...— Unsigned comment by 187.156.130.211 (talk)

right on the main page it says "This site's purpose is to provide information; therefore, most of the content contains spoilers." if you havn't played the game then don't go looking at the skyrim content. (Eddie The Head 16:45, 23 December 2011 (UTC))

Ulfric is a Jarl, specifically the Jarl of Windhelm, the player is aware of this at the beginning of the game in the dragon attack on Helgan. The image is of Ulfric on his throne in Windhelm. And as well, most articles on this wiki contain spoilers. Rhoan 20:59, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the spoiler is showing Ulfric's dead body at the end of the article. -_- jk. This page looks fine. 75.229.74.137 06:05, 3 November 2012 (GMT)

Shouting

Whenever I attack Ulfric on a whim, and cause him to turn hostile, he uses a shout (visually looks like Fus-Ro-Dah), but doesn't speak any words. It insta-kills me between levels 10-20. 72.160.83.51 06:00, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

He's only got Disarm and Unrelenting Force, so I'm not sure what's going on there. I would guess that it's either damage from being thrown or you're mistaking the ragdoll effect for being killed. – Robin Hood↝talk 04:23, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I think he would know if he wasen't being killed. 86.25.220.153 20:53, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know. Death can be uncertain. You should wait three days and poke with a stick. 75.229.74.137 07:52, 3 November 2012 (GMT)

Speculation?

"Ulfric must be in his 50's, because he fought in the Great War." was recently added to the notes, should this be considered speculation and therefor removed? //MrL 22:34, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Pure speculation and removed. The war ended 26 years ago, so he could still be any where from 44 to 56 (18 to 30) or even older. The Silencer has spoken 22:42, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Ulfric was 20 when he left the Greybeards, depending on which year he joined the war he would be between 46-50

86.25.220.153 20:52, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Could you possibly provide a link or a source backing up that statement regarding his age when he left the Greybeards? If so, it would be very relevant. Kitkat ^{•Talk•Contrib•E-mail} 22:48, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

When you first go an speak to Ulfric after you have learnt your first shout and before you go up to the Greybeards, he has dialogue where he tells you that he went up to be a Greybeard when he was a lad(the age of 10 rings in my head) and how he spent 10 years with them before leaving to fight in The Great War. For some reason, where I read or heard the age he was when he joined the Greybeards is alluding me, i'm sure he was 10, I don't think i imagined someone in the game saying that.

86.25.167.243 19:37, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

(←) Sorry to say, but it is imagined. Neither Ulfric or Arngeir says what age he was. The only 10 in Ulfrics dialogue is the 10 years he spent at High Hrothgar and then the Great War started. The Silencer has spoken^Talk 20:01, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Ulfric says that Arngeir chose him when he was a "lad" (no specific age given) to study at High Hrothgar and become a Greybeard. Ulfric discloses that he could not adopt their "non-involvement" philosophy because he wanted to act on behalf of Skyrim and her people. In that sense, he is a "renegade Greybeard" who left before finishing his training. He further reveals that he and Arngeir are still estranged over his departure from High Hrothgar. If someone could post the transcript of those questions and answers, it would help clarify Ulfric's past greatly. 75.229.74.137 02:47, 3 November 2012 (GMT)

Imperial veteran?

I read the thalmor dossier and it said he's a veteran of the legion and he fought in the Great War, so does that mean that some Stormcloaks are imperial veterans? — Unsigned comment by Awsomedawg (talk • contribs) at 14:27 on 31 October 2012

Yes, they are rebels of a sort, and most of the soldiers in the Stormcloaks learned their trade in the Imperial Legion. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 14:42, 31 October 2012 (GMT)

Yes. Legate Rikke and Galmar Stone-Fist among others fought in the Great War in the ranks of the Imperial Legion. The Stormcloaks reject the White-Gold Concordant as an acceptable peace. They fought to protect the Emperor willing to give their lives, and they returned shamed without the legality to practice Nord traditions in exchange for "peace." Ulfric summarizes "I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

However, the Stormcloaks did not form until after the Markarth Incident. Jarl Igmund and the Silver-Bloods lost control of the Reach during the Great War. The Forsworn established rule, and there are a few remarks to the effect that it was "not that bad" under the Forsworn. While the Empire recovered, Ulfric and returning soldiers were offered the free exercise and establishment of Talos worship in Markarth if they would "free" the city. Ulfric led a militia to Markarth and beseiged it on behalf of Jarl Igmund and the ousted Silver-Bloods.

Unfortunately, we have no unbiased source of the events. The "Bear of Markarth" relates an Imperial propaganda view of a massacre following Ulfric's victory. These stories are substantiated by a few prisoners in Cidna mine who say that anyone who didn't help Ulfric's militia was executed. What is told by Jarl Igmund himself is simply that Ulfric regained the Reach. (He also seems to allow the Silver-Bloods to imprison and execute anyone with impunity.) The Thalmor demand the Jarl arrest and deport Ulfric's militia to their authority. The Jarl complies as the Empire agrees with the order.

Ulfric is imprisoned by the Thalmor for the second time. While imprisoned, he hears of his father's passing and must write an eulogy from prison though he is an Imperial veteran not a criminal (except for worshipping Talos). He says "such is the love of the Empire for those who serve her." Curiously, none of the citizens of Markarth criticize the Markarth Incident harshly except the falsely accused "forsworn" who "crossed" the Silver-Bloods. None of these accuse Ulfric directly but seethe against all Nords especially the Silver-Bloods as the cause for their false imprisonment. Ironically but predictably, they take up the Forsworn's cause as a mileu to revenge.

Ulfric relates upon his release coming home to a city in mourning for his father, the "Great Bear of Windhelm." He is elected as the successor to his father with the expectation he will lead them against Imperial tyranny. Convinced that the Empire will not stand up to the Thalmor ambassadors or honor the Nord veterans who fought for the Empire, Ulfric finds the cries of other shamed soldiers ringing in his ears in Windhelm. It is these soldiers that ask Ulfric to lead and lead he believes he must to ensure the freedom of Skyrim from the Thalmor. They are called Stormcloaks in ridicule, but soon it becomes their mantle of pride in their fight for freedom--freedom of worship and independence for Skyrim (to annul Imperial law imposed through the White-Gold Condordant).

Speculation:

The Markarth Incident ensured Ulfric would be re-captured and turned over to the Thalmor since the Empire would comply readily to the demands of the White-Gold Concordant (including the ban on Talos worship) to avoid re-entering into war so soon. This incident played upon Ulfric's strong religious beliefs which the Thalmor undoubtedly gathered when he was captured during the Great War. Once in the Thalmor's hands a 2nd time after the Markarth Incident, his release which was delayed until after his father's death and the refusal to allow him to attend his father's funeral were undoubtedly orchestrated to estrange Ulfric from the Empire (which did not act to secure his release); but he also became "uncooperative" which suggests that the Thalmor could no longer directly blackmail or manipulate him after his father's death. [It is also possible that his father became ill due to his son's imprisonment and disgrace.]

What the Thalmor were able to get from Ulfric (if anything) between the Great War and the Markarth Incident is unclear. But they claim to have contacted him likely through Elenwen.

The most elusive and vague Dossier Lines remain thus:
"After the [Great] war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact."

His status as an "asset" was made after they learned he was the son of the Jarl of Windhelm. Which simply meant they knew they could potentially use such a man whether he were willing or not.

Ulfric is a complicated man; however, he seems to honestly believe in the free worship of Talos and an independent Skyrim as necessary to defy the Aldmeri Dominion. (This conviction to abandon the Empire fostered by the leadership's lack of standing up for Talos worshippers and veterans in the Markarth Incident and in general after the Great War.) That being said, his solution to fight the Empire by cutting a swath through his former comrades-in-arms seems--counterproductive and a bit radical. However, it is hard to believe he would ever be a willing operative in any way for the Thalmor. Even Thorvald says "I'd like to believe I'd hold out against their tortures forever, but I don't know." Thalmor agents in the Embassy remark "Everyone talks eventually." I doubt a man who so strongly opposed the Thalmor would willing give them the time of day except under duress. Ulfric demands Elenwen be removed from the council at High Hrothgar before negociations commence. This would not be the position of a spy, informant, or colleague. It is this very request which seems arbitrary and demanding that seems out of place.

When Ulfric is captured during the Great War was likely near the end since "he broke" and provided information on the Capitol only after it had fallen (making his information inconsequential though he was made to believe it was "crucial"). How long after the war ended he was imprisoned is unclear but he must have been allowed to escape shortly after since he made it back to Skyrim with other returning soldiers in time to hear of the "Call to Arms" issued to reclaim Markarth. His false belief that he betrayed his allies might have encouraged his acceptance of Jarl Igmund's plea to retake Markarth in order to redeem himself.

It could be merely Ulfric's impetuous actions in defiance of the White-Gold Concordant were the "proof" of his worth which were bonuses to their "strategic goals." But why the Thalmor contacted Ulfric and if anything was directly gained is unknown. 75.229.74.137 05:44, 3 November 2012 (GMT)

Whoa. I wanted to know a little, but this is crazy. Errrrrrrrrrrr, thanks? — Unsigned comment by Awsomedawg (talk • contribs) at 22:09 on 4 March 2013

Elewen seems to be the one who tortured Ulfric, which is likely why he is so opposed to her presence at the peace talks. He even eludes to this in his dialogue to her. As for whether Ulfric's solution is "counterproductive", that's certainly a matter of debate and opinion that countless people have disagreed on. Lobsel Vith (talk) 16:34, 18 March 2013 (GMT)

Legitimacy of Ulfric's use of the Thu'um

One think it would be nice to see mentioned in the article in more detail is Ulfric's study of the Thu'um, and subsequent betrayal of the Way of the Voice. One thing that seemed a little unclear (to me at least) is whether learning the Thu'um is an honour, or if it is joining the Greybeards that is the honour, since they've been such a traditional part of Skyrim for some time. The voice is a kind of strange thing for nords who almost universally despise magic, and yet the Stormcloaks are fine with Ulfric going around using shouts, which in some ways are much more powerful than other magic, and in spite of the fact that he is going entirely against the teachings of the Greybeards, though a lot of people probably don't realise the difference since the Greybeards are so reclusive.

Anyway, it would be good if someone better informed could briefly cover his status with the Greybeards at the time of the Skyrim game; I dunno if there is any good information to cite though, as like I say, it's never been quite clear when I played the game. Haravikk (talk) 15:44, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

If you think the issue lacks clarity, you're not alone. Unfortunately, ambiguity in the game seems to prevent us from going into greater detail. Some things suggest the Greybeards are very selective about who they train; other things suggest that virtually anyone with particular talent could attempt to become one of them, and only a rare few can make it through the rigors of their training and lifestyle. As you can see from the discussions here and here, there's not much we can really say about the legitimacy of Ulfric's use of the thu'um without making assumptions or delving into original research. Bethesda likely kept the issue vague on purpose so that it's more difficult to discern whether Ulfric is a hero or villain and allow players to forge their own stories. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 16:00, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

Ah, very true and yeah it does seem a big issue. Still, I don't see anywhere in the article that discusses his standing with the Greybeards, I believe Arngeir does comment on it? I may have missed the note if there is one, but it seems relevant, and ought to fit just after his mentioning how any Nord can learn the voice if they have the ambition. -- Haravikk (talk) 12:41, 12 November 2012 (GMT)

History summary

"Prior to the rebellion, according to various sources, Ulfric had formerly fought for the Imperial Legion during the Great War between the Thalmor and the Empire; it was said that he was a prisoner of war, captured and interrogated by the Thalmor Ambassador Elenwen, until he was allowed to escape. Sometime after the Great War had ended, Ulfric also was said to have been a veteran of a war between the Nords and the Forsworn. According to many inhabitants of the Reach, when the Forsworn had began a massive uprising of their own against the Nordic population, during and shortly after the Great War, Ulfric was one of the prominent commanders of the Nords, as he had decimated the Forsworn presence in Markarth with his Thu'um."

While I was transcluding the lore intro, I removed this paragraph about Ulfric's history, as unlike everything else on the page, it was entirely about past events unrelated to the game experience. It also gives a piecemeal account, some of the wording in the paragraph was confusing (that last sentence, mainly), it doesn't have the benefit of references, and it seemed like we were doing a bit of editorializing in giving what we considered the "highlights" of his past. I just thought I should point it out because I don't typically remove information from a page when making a transclusion. I figured we can leave the lore page to do the heavy lifting on Ulfric's history, because we know quite a bit about him. Alternatively, we could transclude Ulfric's entire pre-Skyrim history from the lore page; it would only require minor changes to each page to mesh them. If anyone feels strongly about having a independent, shorter history summary included on this page instead, the third option is to re-add one, of course, but I think we can craft one that has a bit more of a comprehensive narrative to it than the above does. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 05:12, 17 April 2013 (GMT)

Personally, I feel that such an important character should have (dare I say) all his history included on his page. I'm not really sure if that's acceptable for NPC pages here, but I think moving it all over to the lore namespace would be a shame. Admittedly, I know that's not really have a solid reason, but personally I like to read about the characters backgrounds on the same page as the game info, rather than having to find the lore page. --Jimeee (talk) 09:16, 17 April 2013 (GMT)