UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard

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The administrator noticeboard is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for administrators, all users are encouraged to participate in discussions.

Before starting a discussion here, please review the list of other community pages below, as your question or suggestion may be more appropriate on another page.

Other pages for community-wide or general questions include:

  • Policies and Guidelines — A category listing of policies and guidelines, which each have individual pages; their talk pages are the best place to discuss these policies (see Active Discussions for links to active policy discussions).
  • Vandalism — Discussions regarding vandalism and spam.
  • Community Portal — The main discussion forum used for community-wide discussions about UESP's operations, policies, design, and improvement.
  • Reference Desk — This is the best place for questions about how to play Elder Scrolls games.
  • Community Portal/Templates — Technical issues regarding templates and related issues can be discussed on this page.

Specific requests can be made on these pages:

  • Bot Requests — This page can be used to request that one of the wiki's bots take on a task.
  • Image Requests — You can request specific images for articles here.
  • Creation Kit Information Requests — You can request specific Creation Kit information for articles here.
  • New Page Requests — You can request a new page here if you were prevented from creating the page yourself.
  • Purge Requests — If you are having problems viewing an article on UESP, the page may need to be purged. New purge requests can be made here.

In addition, past discussions from the Administrator Noticeboard can be found at:

  • AN Archives — Lists all of the past discussions from the Administrator Noticeboard, including major discussions and chronological archives.
  • Past Administrative Requests — A list of all previous requests for administrator and other administrative requests.

[edit] Planet Elder Scrolls

The wiki needs to be checked for links from Planet Elder Scrolls. Not only did it move from Gamespy to IGN, which would've already broken the links, it actually closed down two years ago. That means links on a number of pages are broken and need to be replaced. I noticed it on Tes3Mod:Texture_Fixes and Morrowind:Recommended_Mods at least - there's probably several more affected. Digifiend (talk) 20:31, 29 November 2014 (GMT)

It looks like a new user, Gormadoc took care of this a couple of days ago. Thanks for reporting it, and thanks to Gormadoc for fixing them! Robin Hood  (talk) 16:19, 18 December 2014 (GMT)
No problem at all, it was interesting. The rest of the links are on user pages, user talk pages, are in some user comments on article talk pages, and Roleplaying is protected. The last is easy for anybody with higher permissions to fix, but what do I do, if anything, about the others? - Gormadoc (talk) 04:38, 29 December 2014 (GMT)
Not overly related to this, but what kind of protection is on Roleplaying? It doesn't say and there is no mention of who even placed the protection. I would think that for the user talk posts adding the deleted link thing would suffice, same for the user pages (I hate suggesting editing someone else's userpage, but it would fall under general link maintenance I think). ~ Ad intellige (talk) 04:43, 29 December 2014 (GMT)
It looks like it's not protected, but locked. I don't recall seeing that before. It may have been to prevent even attempting to edit the page and encourage editing of the other page. I hoped it would fall under link maintenance and would be acceptable, but I wanted to get confirmation from someone who has actually edited the site for a while. Thank you! - Gormadoc (talk) 04:53, 29 December 2014 (GMT)
It was a major problem article back in the day, so it is fully protected to discourage any further editing. I have removed the Planet Elder Scrolls link from the article in question. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 06:01, 29 December 2014 (GMT)
The "it's" in "For players who consider Fast Travel to be unrealistic, it's use can be minimized ..." needs to be changed to "its". :) Holomay (talk) 14:23, 29 December 2014 (GMT)
Okay, everything that was using the PES template has been changed. This task can be considered done! - Gormadoc (talk) 17:05, 29 December 2014 (GMT)

[edit] ESO Data Mining

I've been busy over the last month mining a variety of data from ESO and while its not completely finished it is working well enough to be let loose.

Two things I'd like to get from everyone:

  • Bugs and issues: I already know of a bunch of things but let me know of things anyways in case I've missed it.
  • Feedback/Ideas: I don't have a clear direction of where to use these utilities/data. Some of the data may be useful to include in the wiki page, hence the dumpMinedItems utility, but let me know what format/data is needed. I'm thinking the dynamic item tooltip might be useful to include within the wiki as well.
  • More Data: There is still a ton of data from the uespLog add-on that hasn't been completely parsed yet. If you need/want anything in particular let me know.

-- Daveh (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2014 (GMT)

One thing I've wanted since before the game, but haven't figured out how yet is to have it so hovering over an item link would result in a popup of the tool tip. That way we can have links to the items without having to have a separate page for the millions of items that are in the game (and thus breaking the wiki). If you have ever been on Wowpedia, they do something similar, plus they use mediawiki and not wikia so I hope that something like this could be possible? Jeancey (talk) 07:39, 12 December 2014 (GMT)
Making tooltips from it is an interesting idea actually. Having a quick look at Wowpedia (I've never been there before), it seems that they still have pages for all the items, but they have a javascript code that pulls the infobox from the article and displays it on the tooltip. Their help page on tooltips gives a bit of detail on how this works, and I assume the code required for it is in Common.js. --Enodoc (talk) 09:53, 12 December 2014 (GMT)
Yes, a popup tooltip is definitely possible. I'll test out some things next week. -- Daveh (talk) 13:22, 12 December 2014 (GMT)

() Update: Added a few parameters to the dump script to output a summary of item types:

Items that have different levels/qualities will show the ranges of various data in these tables. Html and wiki tables show the item's icon and have a link to the item data page. DumpMinedItems Documentation has been updated with these new parameters and all the type numbers that go with them. -- Daveh (talk) 16:09, 12 December 2014 (GMT)

Pop-ups are cool, but I still think we should make use of wikitables as well (at least for unique items). It'll be exciting to start incorporating this data into actual articles. Online:Sealed Urn was my attempt at manual extraction. —Legoless (talk) 16:42, 12 December 2014 (GMT)
I can get a similar output to that page using http://esoitem.uesp.net/dumpMinedItems.php?equiptype=3&armortype=1&fields=icon,name,armorType,level,armorRating,value,enchantDesc,trait,description&output=wiki&extrait (see here for that pasted into the wiki). The dump script has been designed to be as general as possible to make it easy to adjust output as needed. Still needs a few tweaks depending on what data is needed to be output. For example, I like the trait (X%) format on that page. It probably also needs a few more ways to select which items to output (simple search by item name or a list of itemIds come to mind). Updated with a new trait name display option. -- Daveh (talk) 17:52, 12 December 2014 (GMT)
Popup Test Page: Got it working with only minor changes to the existing code and seems to work well. Will likely have to create an extension to get it working in the wiki but this is not difficult. -- Daveh (talk) 19:51, 12 December 2014 (GMT)
Turned out easier than I thought which is strangely nice for a change. See User:Daveh/testlink. You may need to force-reload the wiki page to get the link popups to display properly. -- Daveh (talk) 21:25, 12 December 2014 (GMT)
Templating it might make it the most accessible, but yes, that's really nice to see! Jeancey (talk) 01:49, 13 December 2014 (GMT)
Not sure if it's just me but the popups seem to have stopped working. I can try and get this into a template, but that may be something that Robin or someone else could do better than me. --Enodoc (talk) 19:54, 14 December 2014 (GMT)

() I haven't really been following this closely, but I don't think we can do anything with a template unless the data is actually published directly on the wiki (i.e., not via a PHP script). Robin Hood  (talk) 20:01, 14 December 2014 (GMT)

(edit conflict) It's still working for me, but I'm noticing that it causes my entire system to freeze up for a few minutes upon first loading. Dunno if it's Chrome or my machine causing the problem, since it's an issue I encounter semi-frequently, but this is the first time I've seen it happened on UESP. —Legoless (talk) 20:04, 14 December 2014 (GMT)
It might just be that my js has stopped working for some reason, as some other functions seem to have disappeared too.
I thought maybe it would be possible to template it in the same way that <ref> became {{ref}}, and looking at it, that seems to be based on #tag:, but I wasn't sure how generalized that function can be for custom tags like <esoitemlink>. --Enodoc (talk) 21:53, 14 December 2014 (GMT)
I wasn't thinking of that, Enodoc. Something like that might be doable. If you want to do a proof-of-concept or even just a mockup template, we can see how it works and go from there. Robin Hood  (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
Template is done and seems to work. See {{Item Link}}. There may be some unforseen issues with it, but at base level it seems to be working. --Enodoc (talk) 11:02, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
Which browsers are people seeing JS issues in? Everything looks/works fine for me in Chrome/IE but Google Adsense is messed up in FireFox (ad code is displayed instead of the ad image). This doesn't seem to be related to this new plugin as disabling it has no effect. -- Daveh (talk) 20:13, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
I just tested on all five major PC browsers and the popups fail on all of them once the page is fully loaded. On Chrome, IE, Firefox, and Safari, the popups will load and display properly provided that the page is still loading and processing my custom JS. Strangely, on Opera, it simply never worked at all, but perhaps Opera doesn't allow scripts to run until it's completely finished loading the page? I dunno. I tried logging in as the bot, which has no custom JS, and I get no popups at all on either IE or FF (didn't try the others). Robin Hood  (talk) 21:05, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
They work fine while loading and when loaded on Chrome on PC for me. Jeancey (talk) 21:24, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
It's IE (11) and Firefox (33) that I'm having the trouble with, but only when I'm logged in. If I log out, everything works fine. --Enodoc (talk) 23:18, 15 December 2014 (GMT)

() Can people with Javascript issues try doing a forced reload (ctrl+F5) or clear your browser's cache to see if it fixes anything or if the problem persists? I've disabled the ESO item popup just in case it was the one causing problems. -- Daveh (talk) 21:24, 16 December 2014 (GMT)

It's working ok for me now; HotCat is back and other JS things are working properly again. the item popup must be conflicting with specific user-based JS from options in Special:Preferences or something, as it was only a problem when logged in. --Enodoc (talk) 22:37, 16 December 2014 (GMT)
The extension is re-enabled. Try doing another reload (or forced reload) and see if anything breaks this time. -- Daveh (talk) 16:30, 17 December 2014 (GMT)
Unfortunately it all broke again, sorry! --Enodoc (talk) 17:38, 17 December 2014 (GMT)
Same here. Without the extension it works. With that enabled, no JS :( Moinante (talk) 19:53, 17 December 2014 (GMT)
I removed a piece of logging code that I forgot was there that was causing issues on IE/FF. Try a forced reload of the page and see if that does anything. There may still be an issue with some logged out pages that have been cached by Squid until I clear/reset them. -- Daveh (talk) 14:27, 18 December 2014 (GMT)
Almost; there's now just a minor residual conflict. If the Gadget Convert the "sections" portion of the sidebar to be collapsible. is enabled, all JS works except the esoitemlink popup. If the Gadget (Sidebar) Replace labels for collapsible menus with links, condensing it a bit is enabled, no JS works at all. At the moment I'm running with neither of them, and everything else (HotCat, the Clock, grouped Recent Changes, and the esoitemlink popup) is working fine. (Admittedly I didn't test this thoroughly before, so they may have been causing the conflict all along.) --Enodoc (talk) 15:35, 18 December 2014 (GMT)

() Confirmed here as well. Disabling the sidebar code, popups started working again. I don't have much else that I use that involves JS after initial page load. Robin Hood  (talk) 16:01, 18 December 2014 (GMT)

I just noticed I have javascript again. It seems everything is working ok now. Moinante (talk) 21:50, 21 December 2014 (GMT)
It "should" be fixed now...I added back the jquery include for the item link code. MW should already have jquery included but it doesn't seem to work 100% if I don't include it. -- Daveh (talk) 18:27, 22 December 2014 (GMT)
Works for me. After re-enabling the sidebar code, popups still pop up the way they should. Robin Hood  (talk) 18:30, 22 December 2014 (GMT)
Same here. Everything seems to be working now. Thanks Dave! --Enodoc (talk) 18:48, 22 December 2014 (GMT)
Maybe not quite yet. I'm just noticing that only the first table on a page displays as sortable, and even that one isn't actually sortable (e.g., Skyrim:Marriage). Robin Hood  (talk) 03:47, 23 December 2014 (GMT)
I just noticed the image uploading preview doesn't work eihter Moinante (talk) 22:36, 23 December 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Edit Break 1 (ESO Data Mining)

JavaScript once again seems to be broken when the gadget (Sidebar) Replace labels for collapsible menus with links, condensing it a bit is enabled, and the popup again isn't working with Convert the "sections" portion of the sidebar to be collapsible. Maybe I should just stop using those gadgets... --Enodoc (talk) 09:37, 19 January 2015 (GMT)

Alternatively, we could fix the gadgets so they work. :Þ I'll look at them and see what's up. The popups were working with the sidebar fix the other day, but they seem to have stopped now. ARGH! It might just be something to do with the server upgrades. I'll poke around and see what I can find. Robin Hood  (talk) 17:41, 19 January 2015 (GMT)
Things seem to work now, though I did need to do a hard refresh for them to work. Please let me know if they work now for you as well. Robin Hood  (talk) 23:42, 19 January 2015 (GMT)
Yep, they do appear to be working again. Thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 00:16, 20 January 2015 (GMT)

[edit] Featured Article

That's the first time I've processed an FA nom. Can someone with more FA experience just look over it and make sure I got everything right. Thanks! Robin Hood  (talk) 20:51, 15 December 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Request for my 0RR -> 3RR

I am writing to request for a 3RR.

Why would I request for it? Because I have made approximately 100 edits the past few days which weren't pointless, improved articles and have taken things to the article talk page or a user's talk page when a contribution is partially reverted or fully reverted.

This is a request directed mainly towards the administrators to have a form of consensus about whether this request is appropriate. Dragon Guard  (talk) 16:06, 2 January 2015 (GMT)

Non-admins are still more than welcome to join in the consensus. Dragon Guard  (talk) 16:11, 2 January 2015 (GMT)
My suggestion would be a trial period at 1RR, then see how that goes. You've obviously improved over the time you've been here, but whether you're young or are on the autism spectrum or whatever else, there are still a lot of niceties of social interaction that you don't seem to understand. I would prefer to test the proverbial waters before restoring you to the standard 3RR. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:05, 2 January 2015 (GMT)
(edit conflict) If I may leave my own opinion as a semi-active patroller watching the RC, I'm a little cautious about him getting his 3RR returned to him. He's got his decent edits from time to time, but he tends to get reverted a decent amount himself, and I have a slight concern for him being able to judge and perform his own reverts, considering that he himself is not quite far enough beyond the threshold of what I personally find comfortable for editing standards. And, for the content editing he does perform, the ability to perform a reversion of another user isn't a hinderance necessarily.
If he was in good standing, I'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and watch as he develops and matures as an editor, but right now he's not in good standing. He's better behaved than he was when he was being warned or blocked all the time, but he still has his moments that come off as condescending and inappropriate at times, which was a concern coupled together with his 1RR blocking, and as he's not developed quite enough in that aspect of his editing, I'm not entirely convinced that he will not return to using revert privileges as part of his argument.
Or, per RH70, I could see a 1RR trial being doable, and if that's the case, I have faith in the administration's decisions. -damon  talkcontribs 19:10, 2 January 2015 (GMT)
Before I dwell into your comments I would just like to say thank you. Thank you, one and all, for taking your time to respond to my request. I will now state what I think based on the number of statements you have put down.
@RobinHood70—I concur with your 1RR trial suggestion, and I have improved a lot since my last warning (back in 2013) from ThuumofReason, who told me, within the last couple of months, that there is still room for improvement but I have much better understanding of how things happen on the site. Regarding these "niceties of social interaction" (please specify these), I have only really been reminded about my comments which could be construed as "condescending", "rude" and "outright rude at worst". Just last monty he gave me a reminder of my condescending comments I have said recently, telling me to stop making them. He gave no diff links to them whatsoever and serious accusations require serious evidence. I take it was because of my first few sentences on the community portal starting from "What a pity" all the way to "references". I don't really see how "This is how I feel about these "guidelines" and anyone wanting to support them." is (if at all) bad. It was just stating that the previous thoughts were from myself and no-one else. Anyway, moving on, what do you mean by "proverbial waters"?
@Damon—I understand that you are cautious about me being given my 3RR privilege back to me, but I haven't reverted edits in ages and thus reverting the wrong edits probably isn't going to happen (you can almost be rest-assured of it, if you think of it that way). Trust me on this. Moving on: what is your definition of "good standing"? Is it fully knowing all the guidelines perhaps? As for the "moments" part, see the above paragraph on the ToR part. Regarding the 1RR, I would support that concept fully. Thank you for reading through this long reply and stating your thoughts on the matter. Dragon Guard  (talk) 20:29, 2 January 2015 (GMT)
There is no set standard on when someone returns to "good standing". It's a subjective thing, and it varies based on a case-by-case basis, though it's roughly consistent. If one were to merely given a warning on a one off time and then quickly corrected their behaviour and made it not an issue anymore, I personally would start overlooking the presence of the warning within a few days or weeks when interacting with that user. A user who got a block might be closer to a view months of being behaved and not having problems.
For your specific case, my personal opinion of "good standing" is based on the fact that in 2013 you had numerous warnings and blocks consecutively, which is generally concerning, and while you're greatly improving as an editor, you've still got a few odd moments that i'm not fond of where you can come off as combative or condescending, which was one of the reasons you were blocked some time ago. Were that behaviour to outright cease or nearly cease and stay that way for some time, I might generally disregard your warnings/blocks if I had to interact with you unless it was a serious matter. And, of course, that's just my opinion. Whichever administrator decides to make the decision on giving you a 1RR or 3RR verdict might have different ideas about how you'd have to be to get their favour. Have I answered this thoroughly enough? Or, do I need to clear something up or elaborate? -damon  talkcontribs 21:20, 2 January 2015 (GMT)
Not yet. From your perspective, please could you evaluate about why those comments on the CP were rude and condescending? Also, why did ToR give me a reminder on this behaviour, but gave no diff links to show evidence when serious accusations require serious evidence? Dragon Guard  (talk) 21:26, 2 January 2015 (GMT)

() Damon phrases my thoughts exactly. You're beginning to make progress, but you're not at the point where I have enough faith in your edits to support a removal of the restrictions. A 1RR trial run would be feasible, but even that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable at the moment. Until you demonstrate that you're capable of understanding our procedures on par with other editors, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a 3RR on your account. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 01:48, 3 January 2015 (GMT)

Also, I did not say that you have a much better understanding of how things happen; I told you that you were acting more politely in discussions than you have been in the past, like Damon said. However, your overall handling of discussions still leaves much to be desired, as do many of your content edits. Understanding why something is rude isn't really the kind of thing that can be explained; either you understand it or you don't, but it's an important thing to be able to understand it if you want to make real progress in how you handle disputes and discussions. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 01:56, 3 January 2015 (GMT)
Edit wars were long ago...a long time ago...I'm not going to be doing that type of stuff again. And why do I need a better understanding of discussions for a 3RR when it has nothing to to with reverting? Maybe if you specify what these things are I need to understand in discussions (bullet point format maybe) are I will learn from these mistakes. Dragon Guard  (talk) 09:06, 3 January 2015 (GMT)
The issue I see here is that you continue to take a condescending tone in discussions, which can result in further disagreements between users and was, if I recall correctly, the entire reason your 0RR was enacted. -- RNM|T 10:29, 3 January 2015 (GMT)
Thank you for the reply, Nocte. If I remember correctly, AKB put me on 0RR after conversing with some others. Dragon Guard  (talk) 11:01, 3 January 2015 (GMT)
There have only been four other users stating their thoughts. Some more feedback would be appreciated. Dragon Guard  (talk) 17:13, 3 January 2015 (GMT)
While I typically would stay uninvolved in these sort of discussions, I believe that 1RR would be the best option, as it allows you some flexibility to prove that you understand the proper way for a discussion to occur, without resorting to simple reverts. Jeancey (talk) 19:52, 3 January 2015 (GMT)
Yes, I agree. But maybe we should let Krusty drop by in this discussion and see what he thinks—after all—he put me on 1RR in the first place. Dragon Guard  (talk) 20:28, 3 January 2015 (GMT)

() Since Krusty hasn't really been active since August/September, it's unlikely that he'll be around to contribute. That being said, I too think that a 1RR is a good idea for the time being. •WoahBro►talk 20:52, 3 January 2015 (GMT)

OK, a 1RR it is then, since most people seem to think it's best. But which admin will place me on 1RR (i.e., leave a notice on my talk page to tell me I'm officially on 1RR)? Yes, WoahBro. Krusty (and many others) have been inactive recently. Maybe they flew south for the Winter? Haha :)! Dragon Guard  (talk) 21:07, 3 January 2015 (GMT)
And maybe when they do leave me a message regarding 1RR, they should tell me all the things I have a lack of understanding in, in a wikitable, with two headers: occupational (when editing pages) and communication (my social niceties). An example would be
Don't derail posts about unrealistic suggestions with the goal being to get my own way (such as that investigator guard and NPC slider discussion).
Don't add full stops to proper-sentence captions that I am not sure about.
What do you think? Dragon Guard  (talk) 21:16, 3 January 2015 (GMT)
I think if you have not already determined where you need to improve, your 0RR should not be changed at all. -- RNM|T 08:57, 4 January 2015 (GMT)
Agreed. The entire reason you were placed on a 0RR and given those blocks was because you never read the policies you've been linked to, and you still expect other editors to explain things in great detail to you step by step. We've been very patient with you, but our job is to assist, not spoonfeed. I'm sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but if you can't take the time to try and improve yourself without needing other editors to explain every single thing to you, you're not ready for any lifting of sanctions. An understanding of policies must come before, not after. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 14:02, 4 January 2015 (GMT)
Very good points. However, I think a trial 1RR is a good compromise. If DG can show that he can abide by the policies and guidelines, then maybe he can have the 3RR reinstated.
Also, this is the Administrator Noticeboard. This doesn't work like the CP trying to get a consensus. Just because a consensus is reached here, doesn't mean anything really has to happen. The admins can take into consideration the opinions of the community, but it is ultimately their decision what happens here. •WoahBro►talk 16:55, 4 January 2015 (GMT)

() Of course. I wasn't trying to imply that I had any final say in making the decision, just wanted to voice my concerns. I'm not exactly reassured, but I'm willing to go along with it if the admins decide to do a trial 1RR. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 18:17, 4 January 2015 (GMT)

So...all users: basically...should we end it here and put me on 1RR...or shall we wait for more feedback from others (e.g., Legoless, AKB, etc)?
This is how I remember things: after a month of not following the policies I was given a warning by Silencer. One month later, he gave me another warning for still not following policy, although I had improved a very little bit. Very shortly after, I was blocked for two whole days by Krusty for refusing to follow instructions, who said I was now under 1RR. The next month, I was blocked for a month by AKB for the same reasons as the last warnings and blocks, but he was preparing it before the "Dragon Guard" topic went underway on the AN, apparently. AKB stated he blocked me for still not following policy. Shortly after my block expired he said put me on 0RR following further discussions with others, by the email feature presumably? In November I was given a warning by Thuum for bad etiquette towards others. I have not received a warning or a block since. This seems like I am not disruptive anymore I take it, otherwise someone would've blocked me by now?
I have been contributing a lot to the MWOP. And for constructive edits towards the project, everyone's work matters when the goal of the UESPWiki is to be the ultimate number one site of information on the Elder Scrolls. Dragon Guard  (talk) 18:28, 4 January 2015 (GMT)
As WoahBro said, this is the Administrator's Noticeboard. Asking all users for consensus doesn't matter. All editors are welcome to give opinions (and the ones interested in doing so have already), but at the end of the day this is a disciplinary hearing to wrap up sanctions placed on you, and it is solely up to the administration whether or not to do anything about it, and as a disciplinary discussion, they can make the decision taking the words of senior editors into account or completely disregard it and make their own call. The best thing to do right now would be to just leave this conversation alone, let it sit and simmer for a bit, and await an administrator's verdict on what they think is appropriate. -damon  talkcontribs 19:06, 4 January 2015 (GMT)
OK thanks. Dragon Guard  (talk) 19:10, 4 January 2015 (GMT)
To answer a few of DG's points in this conversation, "social niceties" includes anything to do with having polite conversation. You still obviously have some difficulty in that area. I'm thinking in particular of phrases like the one you used in the Gstaff discussion, which you mentioned above, "What a pity; your concerns are invalid". That's definitely not a polite thing to say to someone. Even the phrase you suggested as being not bad could be taken as such, where the "how I feel about...anyone wanting to support them" makes it sound like you see them as being invalid. Sometimes, you're not even being rude, you're just not understanding whose job it is to do what. "OK, a 1RR it is then" was not your call to make. As others have mentioned, that's for the admins to decide.
The phrase "testing the proverbial waters" just meant that it would be a trial. ("Proverbial" just means that I'm not being literal; it was unnecessary since, obviously, there are no actual waters to test.)
A table outlining specific concerns would be impractical. I know you're looking for concrete examples, and I've given you a couple above, but social etiquette isn't something you can really list in a table. It comes more from experience and interacting with people. If I'm right in my suspicions that you're on the autism spectrum (like me and one or two others here, btw), it takes a lot more experience and interaction than it does for most people, and you'll probably still never quite get it right. But that's getting a bit off-topic for this discussion. You're welcome to use the e-mail feature to contact me if you'd like to discuss that further. As for the occupational stuff, I'd say not to worry too much about that part. That's mostly a matter of time, though it's always good to review policies or ask about things if you're at all unsure about anything.
Lastly, while most people seem to be in favour of a 1RR trial, there has been some opposition as well. If an outside admin is reading this, I'd appreciate a call on this. If there's no response in the next day or so, though, I'll go with the 1RR trial discussed above. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:46, 4 January 2015 (GMT)
While I have noticed some improvement, I do not feel comfortable at this time removing 0RR. When I do, I will contact you to let you know that I am willing to make the change. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 20:22, 4 January 2015 (GMT)
So here's the situation now everyone: a 3RR is out of the question. A 1RR maybe. I know making a list of 1RR "supporters" and "opposers" would serve no purpose...but a majority seem to want to give me the benefit of the doubt with it. @AKB: I think different; if I'm reading correctly are you (kinda) taking control here—saying you can remove 0RR without a consensus? Because I don't think that is a very wise decision to make...suddenly putting me on 0RR, telling me it is (simultaneously) removed without letting anyone else know wouldn't be what I would do. Actually...maybe I won't get so involved in site discussions (including the AN, CP etc) anymore if I have difficulty being civil. Dragon Guard  (talk) 21:03, 4 January 2015 (GMT)

() I'm not sure you entirely understand how administrative actions work. Administrators cannot revert each others decisions without an agreement that it should be undone. As I was a part of the decision to impose 0RR in the first place (although it was universally supported by every administrator with whom I discussed it), my opposition here kills this since this has very minor support and due to Robin being unwilling to make the change if any admins opposed it. I said that by the time I feel you do not need to be on 0RR, I would contact you, because that would mean that I would feel that it is clear enough that you should be leaving 0RR for me to propose the change. You shouldn't have to ask to leave 0RR, we should be making the suggestion that it should happen. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 00:17, 5 January 2015 (GMT)

Oh all right then. Dragon Guard  (talk) 00:35, 5 January 2015 (GMT)
Thank you for understanding. As I said before, when I contact you about this in future, that will mean that I will have seen enough of a change in your performance on the UESP that most other users will likely see it as well. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 00:39, 5 January 2015 (GMT)
I've already discussed this with AKB, but directing DG here first was my fault. I misremembered how the 0RR came into effect—I had thought it was more of a group decision than specific to one administrator. If I'd realized that, I would have suggested you take it up with AKB first, then only bring it here if you disagreed with his decision. (Although it seems likely you would have disagreed, so this discussion would probably have happened anyway, just under a slightly different set of circumstances.) As AKB said, admins don't overturn one another's decisions unless there's a really good reason and strong support for the change. That's obviously lacking here. Robin Hood  (talk) 03:02, 5 January 2015 (GMT)
So the 0RR remains as arranged? Dragon Guard  (talk) 20:15, 5 January 2015 (GMT)
Yes. Robin Hood  (talk) 21:03, 5 January 2015 (GMT)
Look at it this way then: if my performance stops me from getting past 0RR (such as etiquette, even in discussions that don't concern reverting) then why doesn't everyone that has a lack of understanding get put on 0RR, as in the case of people who get blocked for misconduct (elliott, Silencer, rpeh etc)? Why is this a big deal where I can't even have a trial? Please can I have an explanation as to why the 1RR trial is not being allowed? Dragon Guard  (talk) 20:08, 7 January 2015 (GMT)

[edit] Edit Break 1 (Request for my 0RR -> 3RR)

Every situation is looked at individually. Comparing your situation to that of three other users is not helping your case, especially since two of them are currently blocked from the wiki. Additionally, this discussion is pretty much purposeless now - AKB has made it clear that he is not comfortable with removing your 0RR, and administrators do not typically overturn each others' decisions without significant grounds to do so. It is very much like AKB said: You shouldn't have to ask to leave 0RR, we should be making the suggestion that it should happen.-- RNM|T 20:40, 7 January 2015 (GMT)

Really? Well others clearly thought the opposite of AKB. Take WoahBro: he believes a trial 1RR would be OK, but a 3RR would only be OK when I understand the policies/guidelines better. This "significant grounds to do so" part is other believing a trial 1RR would be suitable, but not everyone; such as ToR, who would feel uncomfortable about it. And also, @AKB: what do you mean by when you see an increase in my performance? Does that mean when you see me acting normally like everyone else or just when I've made some more constructive edits, like how I'm working on Morrowind/Bloodmoon NPCs in my sandboxes? Dragon Guard  (talk) 22:57, 7 January 2015 (GMT)
Some other admins think I should be on 1RR—even Jeancey, in his comment well above about saying he wouldn't get involved in these discussions. That would be at least two admins supporting a 1RR, and at least one opposing
RobinHood70 and Jeancey (maybe others).
AKB (maybe others). Dragon Guard  (talk) 23:02, 7 January 2015 (GMT)
I wonder what Legoless thinks of a 1RR? He hasn't dropped by here. Dragon Guard  (talk) 23:06, 7 January 2015 (GMT)
(edit conflict) Look, I'm sorry but this conversation just simply isn't going anywhere. Like Nocte said, this discussion is pretty much purposeless now. If the other admins felt strongly enough to challenge AKB's decision, they would've by now. •WoahBro►talk 23:09, 7 January 2015 (GMT)
I just wanted to drop by and give my thoughts on this situation. Personally i think it would be fine to give you a 1RR trial run, but AKB doesn't think you're ready yet. When he thinks you're ready then he'll let you move up to 1RR, 2RR or even 3RR. It really isn't a huge deal not being able to revert things and most of the time reverting isn't (Except for things like vandalism or a noticeable error on the page) necessary. If an editor really feels like a change needs to be made, they can take it to the talk page and propose it. You've been doing a great job from what i can tell recently, but others have been around a lot longer than me and know you better than me. I have to agree with what AKB said which is "You shouldn't have to ask to leave 0RR, we should be making the suggestion that it should happen." Keep up the good work and eventually you will be able to move up in the Revert rule stuff. Lorenut (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2015 (GMT)
Well...let's hope AKB changes his mind when he hears about my work on NPC articles. I've been having so much fun and satisfaction from writing them myself. Some very important NPCs (Darius, Carnius, Falx etc). He should be proud of me making the wiki a better place for everyone (and Jeancey too for my tireless contributions to the Morrowind and Bloodmoon namespaces and the MWOP). Sure, there's no rush to get it done; we're not obliged to do it by a certain time, but it's when I take time out my day, going in CSList while playing the game. Now that is some awesome work. Ain't it? If AKB won't change his mind, I'll work harder and harder. Dragon Guard  (talk) 23:20, 7 January 2015 (GMT)

() DG: Please don't try to set admins against each other. Whether or not that was your intent, that's the perception you're giving by bringing up who said what and trying to turn this into a vote. Even if I'd remembered that AKB was the one to impose the 0RR and this discussion had happened the way it should have, there's obviously no clear consensus to lift your 0RR. Since that's the case, the 0RR stands. Now, I suggest you drop this discussion, as it's very clearly irritating people. Robin Hood  (talk) 23:33, 7 January 2015 (GMT)

Irritating people? I see Lorenut supporting 1RR. Dragon Guard  (talk) 16:11, 8 January 2015 (GMT)
It's irritating because it is obvious that nothing is going to happen here and you keep prolonging a dead topic. Just please stop. •WoahBro►talk 16:14, 8 January 2015 (GMT)
Well this topic might be over. But I can't say I am too impressed—the development of the discussion was ruined. I guess maybe I should listen and do as you's say, and close this discussion. Thanks all for trying to get me a 1RR. Your call, AKB. Dragon Guard  (talk) 17:23, 8 January 2015 (GMT)
I may support it, but it's obvious that a lot of people don't, so please just let it go. Lorenut (talk) 18:34, 8 January 2015 (GMT)
Yes. I will drop this discussion. A very good idea. Dragon Guard  (talk) 18:49, 8 January 2015 (GMT)

() Dragon Guard, do not post to this topic again, for any reason. First, it's not "my call", it's quite clear from this that you definitely do not need be removed from 0RR. First, you failed to cite any reason as to why you needed to revert edits. Every discussion of why you should have a sanction/edit restriction/ban lifted should begin with what you plan on doing with that ability once you have it. While you have followed proper procedure by not reverting back, now that you're on 0RR, that may only be because we are completely forcing you to do so. Did you intend to try patrolling, reverting plain vandalism? You never made that clear in the discussion above.

Secondly, there was your immediate action to turn this into an argument after I confirmed I was not comfortable with you being off of 0RR yet, with a promise that I would consider this in the future, and see that this happens on my own volition. Even before I said this shouldn't happen, Damon, Thuum, and Rosa all voiced in to express some form of disapproval. But after I did, you failed to accept my answer that this wasn't going to happen, Robin's answer that this wasn't going to happen, Rosa's answer as to why this wouldn't happen, WoahBro's answer as to why this isn't going to happen, Lorenut's explanation for why this shouldn't happen, and Robin's second answer as to why this shouldn't happen. You even tried to start pitting the administrators against each other, a group who usually decides things as close to unanimously as we can can would not disregard my opinion on this subject, even if they supported you tentatively before, they would not have after I made my opinion on the subject clear.

Lastly, if you wanted to convince me that you deserve to be off of 0RR, a decision I made, why would you argue with me? Do you think I appreciate you saying "oh all right then" to me after I explain why this won't happen, only for you to proceed to argue for this for another three days? You accepting my decision was the first step to getting off of 0RR, it wasn't a roadblock, but the way off of it. Your failure to accept it is the single biggest detriment to your case going forward, to be clear. If you had just ended this at "oh all right then", you'd have been off of 0RR in maybe February, but the fact that a simple administrative decision had to become such a fight does you no favors. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 19:07, 8 January 2015 (GMT)

Stop hand.png Do not add to this discussion any further. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 19:07, 8 January 2015 (GMT)

[edit] New Servers

Renewal time for all the UESP's servers is approaching in February. The current servers have worked well for the past 4 years but looking at the current offerings and prices it looks like we can get significantly beefier servers at a lower cost:

Item Current New
CPU i3
i7 (db2)
Dual Xeon E5620 (db1/db2)
8 GB (db2)
8 GB
24 GB (db1/db2)
Disk 300 / 500 GB 1000 GB
RAID Only on files1/db1/db2 All
Cost/Year $15k $10k

For most of the server switch-overs it will (or should be) completely transparent with no down time and only minimal read-only time. I'll update this thread as I switch servers and any issues can be brought up here as well. I hope to start switching over later this week. -- Daveh (talk) 21:13, 14 January 2015 (GMT)

I'll be switching squid1 to use the new content1 server shortly. No downtime or interruption is expected. Note that I won't be changing content1's DNS entry for a few days at least. The new content1 can be accessed at should anyone need it. -- Daveh (talk) 17:26, 16 January 2015 (GMT)
I was curious if it was working, so I tried logging in and got the enable cookies error. Obviously I have cookies enabled, but it appears that content1 doesn't work for logging in. Is that intentional? ~ Ad intellige (talk) 16:55, 19 January 2015 (GMT)
It should work as it worked for me. I'll try again once the new content1 is back up (see below). -- Daveh (talk) 22:33, 24 January 2015 (GMT)
Change of plans. The service provider is setting up a completely new cluster with all the new servers. I'll be reverting back to the old content1 in order to move the new content1 to this cluster. -- Daveh (talk) 22:33, 24 January 2015 (GMT)

All my settings, ranging from my Recent Changes view count, to my miscellaneous gadgets, to my wiki signature, etc, were all mysterious reset a few hours ago, and I had to go back to my preferences and fix them. Is this a random side-effect of the routine maintenance, and are other people needing to go to their Preferences page to fix things, or is it just me? -damon  talkcontribs 20:27, 25 January 2015 (GMT)

This shouldn't be anything related to the server migration unless you happened to be using the new content1 explicitly (either by IP address or by modifying your hosts entry). If anyone else has experienced this please let me know. -- Daveh (talk) 14:33, 26 January 2015 (GMT)

Content1 -- Will be switching over to the new content1 shortly. Will also be switching over all domains to the new content1 this morning. Please let me know of any issues that pop up regarding the wiki or any of the other sites (forums, blog, maps, mobile wiki, etc...). -- Daveh (talk) 14:35, 26 January 2015 (GMT)

In Chrome only, I'm not getting any of the RSS/blog icons (the RSS bullet is actually a completely empty bullet). All other browsers are working as expected. Are any other Chrome users noticing this or is it just me? Robin Hood  (talk) 15:38, 26 January 2015 (GMT)
What are you referring to, RH? I'm on Chrome and haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary. •WoahBro►talk 15:52, 26 January 2015 (GMT)
See :File:User-RobinHood70-Sidebar.jpg. The left side is what I see in Chrome; the right side is what I see in IE. I was logged in as the bot, just to ensure that there was no custom Javascript or anything like that coming into play. Robin Hood  (talk) 16:11, 26 January 2015 (GMT)
You're using an adblocker ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 16:36, 26 January 2015 (GMT)
Oh, bugger! :Þ Now that you remind me, I'm pretty sure we've run into this before at some point. Okay, problem solved. (On further research, if anyone else is using AdBlock, the problem comes from the "Fanboy's Annoyances" filter, which I just turned on recently.) Robin Hood  (talk) 16:38, 26 January 2015 (GMT)
Fixed issue with the esomap due to database permissions. -- Daveh (talk) 17:14, 26 January 2015 (GMT)

Content2 -- Will be switching over to the new content2 this morning. Let me know of any problems with the wiki or specifically the wiki search. -- Daveh (talk) 14:15, 27 January 2015 (GMT)

Content3 -- Will be switching over to the new content3 server shortly. -- Daveh (talk) 17:20, 28 January 2015 (GMT)

Fixed an issue with NFS locking service that caused semi-random slowdowns/timeouts for logged in Wiki users. -- Daveh (talk) 14:27, 29 January 2015 (GMT)

Squid1 and Files1 -- Will be switching over both today. Squid1 is simply a DNS change from the old to the new server which will propagate slowly over the next day. Switching to the new files1 shouldn't require any interruption but you may have issues loading newly uploaded images until the DNS change to images.uesp.net is recognized on your network (new images will be uploaded to the new server but images.uesp.net may still point to the old server). This can be temporarily fixed by manually adding a hosts entry in your OS to for images.uesp.net. -- Daveh (talk) 14:45, 29 January 2015 (GMT)

Db1 and Db2 -- Will be switching over these last two sometime this morning. This will require a short period (~5 minutes) of read-only time for the Wiki and other services to be safe. I'll post here just before and after the read-only period. -- Daveh (talk) 13:30, 30 January 2015 (GMT)

Wiki write-lock happening now. -- Daveh (talk) 13:40, 30 January 2015 (GMT)
Wiki is back to normal. If I did everything right we should be running from the new db1/db2 now. -- Daveh (talk) 13:44, 30 January 2015 (GMT)
Had to switch back to the old db1/db2 as the wiki's weren't correctly setup to write/load from the new database servers. Doing some database fixes and will try again shortly. -- Daveh (talk) 14:43, 30 January 2015 (GMT)
Attempt #2 happening soon...wiki will be locked shortly. -- Daveh (talk) 15:06, 31 January 2015 (GMT)
Wiki unlocked. Should be running on the new db1/db2 if I did things right this time. -- Daveh (talk) 15:11, 31 January 2015 (GMT)
The only problem I can see is that the ESOlog isn't updating anymore. I assume this is due to the server switch? Jeancey (talk) 18:35, 31 January 2015 (GMT)
I'll check it out this afternoon to see what's happening with it. -- Daveh (talk) 19:44, 31 January 2015 (GMT)
It was simply missing the cron script to update it daily (I haven't completely finished copying the cron scripts to all servers yet). I've manually updated it and set it to update daily now. -- Daveh (talk) 21:01, 31 January 2015 (GMT)
I also no longer have permission to connect to DB1 and DB2. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:11, 31 January 2015 (GMT)
When you say "permission" do you mean shell login, mysql login from an external computer, or something else? I haven't setup the new firewall to permit MySQL access from an external computer like the old firewall yet. -- Daveh (talk) 19:44, 31 January 2015 (GMT)
Sorry, I meant MySQL. I don't think I even have shell permissions on DB1 and DB2, or if I do, I don't know about it. :) No rush. Robin Hood  (talk) 20:56, 31 January 2015 (GMT)

() Dave, if it's not been addressed yet, it's possible that Special:Webchat is having some issues, potentially related to all the updates that have been happening. On the Forum's Xertion IRC channel, a user reported that they couldn't access the wiki's IRC through the Webchat link, and I responded to a similar issue sent in via our Facebook page's messaging just a few minutes ago. I can't access it either, though it's not an issue for me, as I use an actual IRC client for all of my IRCing. It just returns the message "The server refused the connection.". Damon(talkemail) 21:22, 1 February 2015 (GMT)

qwebirc communicates over port 9090, which may be blocked by the service provider or the firewall. If for whatever reason you can't unblock port 9090, I believe you can change the port in the config files, then update the link used by the wiki extension I wrote. Dave, let me know if you need any help with that stuff. • JAT 06:22, 3 February 2015 (GMT)
My omission there...I had half-transferred it but didn't complete the setup on the new server for it. It should be running now and let me know if there are further issues with it. -- Daveh (talk) 12:41, 3 February 2015 (GMT)

[edit] Excluding Talk/User pages from Special Pages

I couldn't really think of a good subject without being long winded, sorry. Anyways, is it possible to have subpages not show up for anything other than just page list stuff (Long pages, oldest pages etc) in the Maintenance Reports section? Additionally, can userpages and all talk pages be excluded from the same list? I have yet to find a valid reason for them showing up, since they often times will only clutter it and leave entries that shouldn't be altered. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 16:17, 18 January 2015 (GMT)

Unfortunately, the MediaWiki software just isn't setup to filter almost any of the Special page results. Could it be done? Yes, with some additional programming. The problem is that that programming would need checked and possibly re-adjusted every time we update the wiki software. Just as with the Unused Templates we discussed, the software just isn't there yet. While not ideal either, the more future-proof solution would be to use on-wiki workarounds to trick the wiki into removing these results wherever possible. Those, at least, can readily be deleted or updated by anyone without requiring any back-end PHP programming that only a couple of users can do. Robin Hood  (talk) 20:03, 18 January 2015 (GMT)
Hmmm... I tried something to remove a dead end page from a list, but AFAIK it doesn't work. Is there any way to remove the dead end pages without adding a link in weird spots? And for the unused stuff, what do we do for them? (I would ask about the wanted pages, but that can wait a year or so until we have ESO mostly done) ~ Ad intellige (talk) 16:52, 19 January 2015 (GMT)
{{Dead-end pages exception}}—it's still a link in a weird spot, but at least it's an invisible link in a weird spot. :) I just tried it on Online:EsoExtractData and it worked fine. Whether or not it should be used on the remaining Daggerfall pages I'm not sure. At least the one I was looking at looked like it had names on it that might be useful to link, but I'm not acquainted with Daggerfall enough to know if creating pages for them would be a meaningless exercise. As for unused stuff, the only way is to actually use it, but we can set up a specific page or set of pages for things like that. Robin Hood  (talk) 17:34, 19 January 2015 (GMT)
I never considered using divs haha. I've yet to see any possible links, but its been so long since I played, I can't remember for sure. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 17:52, 19 January 2015 (GMT)

[edit] Moving SR:Thieves Guild (place)

Can an admin merge/move the pages? The merge proposal has had no opposition for around three years, and apparently no one got around to merging them. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 23:22, 28 January 2015 (GMT)

As far as I know, it's just a matter of manually merging any relevant information, then converting the original to a redirect (or perhaps deleting it). Merging page histories would be very confusing. Robin Hood  (talk) 23:39, 28 January 2015 (GMT)
I think the (place) is to be merged, but the (faction) page is to be moved to just Thieves Guild, overwriting the disambig. -- Hargrimm(T) 23:58, 28 January 2015 (GMT)
The disambig is still important, since 'Thieves Guild' appears on an actual map marker. —Legoless (talk) 00:02, 29 January 2015 (GMT)

[edit] IP Block Lengths

Dwarfmp just brought up a good point on my talk page about perma-blocking IPs and since we've pretty much all done it at some point or another, I thought I'd open a larger discussion of it here. The general idea, as I understand it, is that IPs should never be permanently blocked unless they're open proxies (excluding TOR nodes, which vary over time and are already taken care of by TorBlock in any event).

I'm pretty sure the admins all know this already, but for anyone else who might be wondering, the idea is that anybody at all could be editing from an IP and even tomorrow, a legitimate editor could come along on the same IP that was used by a vandal today and find themselves blocked for (from their POV) no good reason. With IPs tending to be somewhat more stable now that cable and DSL are the norm (which can sometimes stay with the same address for months at a time), it's not unreasonable to impose longer blocks. Since we're not as high-traffic as Wikipedia, I generally use a year when I'm blocking a persistent IP spammer/vandal if there are no legitimate edits by similar IP addresses...shorter if there are. Naturally, however, mistakes have been made over the years or admins just weren't aware of the issue at the time, as can be seen here.

I'd like to start pruning our perma-blocked IPs, but before I do anything, I think we should be sure that we're all on the same page and if we're not, then discuss any issues with it. Then, there's the question of how to go about the pruning. I'd like to suggest temporarily giving HnB block rights, then having it go through and re-block any non-proxies (based solely on the description, because there's no other easy way to tell) with a length of a year from the original block. If it's been more than a year, then unblock. After that, we can always reinstate anything that it misses if the address/range become problematic again. Alternatively, if we'd rather take a hands-on approach, we can all just chip away at the list over time, but there are roughly 2000 entries, which is...rather a lot.

And while we're pruning anyway, we should probably re-enable e-mail for any IPs with blocked e-mails, so they can readily mail an admin or Daveh if they need to. Thoughts? Robin Hood  (talk) 05:37, 24 February 2015 (GMT)

As a long-time sufferer of dynamic IPs, I agree with this sentiment. —Legoless (talk) 11:31, 24 February 2015 (GMT)
The bot is ready to go on this. If nobody has any objections, I'll ask Dave to give HnB temporary admin rights later tomorrow. It should be noted that the current version of HnB doesn't support blocking, so I'm calling HnB 2.0 into service for this one, which is still in development. Logging hasn't been developed in that version yet, so the bot'll just go at it with none of the usual log page edits. Apart from that, it should be fairly normal and, as always, you can edit its talk page to make it stop, if necessary. Robin Hood  (talk) 03:59, 26 February 2015 (GMT)
And done. The only permanently blocked IPs now are tagged as proxies. Our list of active IP blocks just got a whole lot smaller. Robin Hood  (talk) 17:55, 27 February 2015 (GMT)
So I take it that we should block open proxies permanently? ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 06:28, 28 February 2015 (GMT)
That's been our historical practice, to reduce sockpuppetry and IP-hopping vandalism. We can always change that practice if there's reason to, though. Robin Hood  (talk) 07:21, 28 February 2015 (GMT)

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