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[edit] Active Discussions

Many discussions of community-wide interest are held on pages other than the community portal. Discussions about specific policies belong on the policy talk pages, for example. The following table lists other discussions that are currently in progress on other talk pages. If you start a discussion on another talk page, please add it to this list. If a discussion listed here has been inactive (i.e., no comments of any type in at least a week), please remove it from the list.

Location Date started Topic Listed here by

[edit] Format of the Generic and Unique Items Pages

Per the discussion here where I was asked by Jeancey to make a community portal discussion on the matter, I am doing so. AKB is currently designing a revamp of the unique items page, which looks like this. The claim is being made that the format being used by AKB for the unique items page is superior and is the way it should be done for all items pages, If you'll read the discussion in its current state, essentially my point is that the new transclusion format, while appropriate for Artifacts where every single item has a unique model and there aren't very many of the items, is inappropriate for unique items and other items pages for the following reasons:

Cons

  • There are far too many items on the pages, making the page massive if we use the transclusion format. This is a major problem for some pages on UESP (example) already where we are specifically targeting trying to make the page smaller, and we shouldn't be worsening the problem.
  • The transclusion lists cannot be sorted, meaning that the flexibility of being able to sort the lists as you want is lost.

Pros

  • You can fit more historical information on the item in the page, but only at the cost of about four times the vertical space per item.

There are currently 110 unique items in Skyrim alone, and with each one in the transclusion format taking up roughly 240px each, that is 26,400px used for that page alone in the new format, compared to roughly 1/4 of that (avg ~60px per item) used currently. Furthermore, let's look at the definitions of these items. They potentially can have unique meshes, but only roughly 10% (13 out of 110) of the items actually do. In the new format, we're putting 180 pixel shots of steel warhammers or dwarven bows or steel daggers on the page, which are not very easily distinguishable from one-another. This is in contrast to the artifacts page, where every single item by definition must have a unique appearance. Lastly, if we continue to look at the items, only about 15-20 out of the 110 items actually have historical lore-related information at all that isn't presented on the page already. Nearly 80% of these unique items are simply items with a different name, or with a weird enchantment oddity, and do not have any meaningful lore associated with them.

Now, part of AKB's project is that he has been working toc create individual pages for each of the unique items in-game, like this. I think these pages are a great idea, and are relevant for unique items. Currently in the unique items page, we include a notes section for key information that should be noted. If we want to expand on those notes, the page itself is the place to do that. Thus, the only change I think is necessary to the unique items page is to add links from the item's name and entry in the table to its page. We do not need the transclusion format for that, and are arguably better served by not having it as I have described above.

If you have feedback in this matter, please feel free to post it! This is a discussion for a reason. :) ∬(RisingDusk)dxdy 11:13, 11 August 2014 (GMT)

My first, not-well-thought-out thought is that the page that AKB is like the Morrowind:Armor Artifacts page which I personally like. Like was said in the original discussion, "more is better" is how things usually run around here, and I have to agree in this case. I feel like the transclusion style here is okay, but having more makes it that much better. •WoahBro►talk 12:57, 11 August 2014 (GMT)
First, thank you WoahBro for supporting my position, I really appreciate it. The "item revamp" project has been such a huge ordeal that I value all support it gets.
To begin, let me clarify a claim about my intention with the scope of this project. If you had read my original post, you would have read this:
"And for the record, I still am unconvinced that we need articles for all items. That might be just too much. For example, there isn't much you can do for an article that would be about a key you use a single time. While this argument can apply to some of the items we currently don't go over in detail, the same is true for some of the items we already do give more coverage. This is not a suggestion that we give an article for, say, Silus's Museum Key. I doubt anyone would even read it, let alone care about it if they did."
I am still not positive about the entire scope, with me starting out on Unique Items as a good tester for where I want to go (as the project is still primarily mine) in the future.
Let me continue by talking about the cons you provided. In the case of unique items, I am splitting the page into several to provide easier loading. Before arguing that this removes value from the page since content will be moved from the page, it will not. The value of having a giant unique items pages is limited. Having users pointed to a page if they type in "Unique Armor" or "Unique Items" is a fairly useful move, I believe.
As for the tragic loss of the table, it is not a loss in any sense of the word. The table is pointless. There is no specific value to being able to quickly being able to compare the Notched Pickaxe and Auriel's Bow, which you can currently do on Unique Items. I have heard about a single user complain every time I remove a table from an item page, including pages like Skyrim:Artifacts and Skyrim:Leveled Items. I just never understand the complaint about how useful it is to be able to "sort" this information. They just serve little purpose on a page where you are not comparing items of a similar make or category. This is a category of items solely determined by us and not the developers, there are not that many shared traits besides.
Now allow me to move onto the value of that extra compression. Depth over breadth is better in most every case. The average reader doesn't care that page is "26,400px" longer. That's something I, as an administrator of several years, would not care about in almost any case. If I wanted to know what NPCs said about Aegisbane, I'm not going to be impressed by our data compression. But let's compare the two, my infobox on Aegisbane alone has more data than the table could comfortably support (item speed, reach, editor ID), while the other has to scrunch the enchantment info into a tiny box to make it fit, I have room to comfortably explain enchantments at a glance or more in-depth, world significance, whatever. As for its current status on the Unique Items page, it hasn't even garnered a note to go alongside it. In fact, looking at this further, at most any of the "notes" sections provide some random tidbit of info or just lists a bug or two. That's what we all care about, right? The infobox and the secondary sections of an article.
And in defense of my images, I think I did a fairly good job of making the shots distinctive. I put a ton of work into making sure that the background would help cause less eye fatigue then just taking a bunch of shots of them in the same room, a trait that I find weakens otherwise good pages like the Skyrim:Artifacts page when we see a ton of shots just taken in the exact same location. Compare my shot of the Blade of Sacrifice to the main "Greenish dungeon shots" you'll see on Skyrim:Artifacts in the weapon section. While the first one has a relevant background, increasing interest and uniqueness, those images on the Artifacts page make me want to skim it more.
I also want to talk about the comment of the "interest" of each item, the fact that several pages lack many details. Let me just say that, quite simply, I am not a machine. In the scope of a project in which the first article requires over 100 new pages to be made, I'm going to skimp on the details at times. The same is true for "interesting" items like Volendrung, which has less information provided then I gave to Nettlebane due to my particular interest into the latter. For a good number of these items, it's a matter of someone putting in the time to expand the page beyond the initial paragraph, a statement that is both true for an artifact or any other item in the game. So, to make it entirely clear, the reason a page like Skyrim:Diadem of the Savant doesn't have much more info on it is due to the amount of time I wanted to put into it before moving on (in that particular case, I suffered about a dozen issues just trying to take that image, and was well ready to move on).
And while I must thank you for the compliments to the work I put in, if you were to win your way here, I would lose all interest in this project. I wanted to display these pages in a similar format to the Artifact format, not just get a link on some table and have it called "done". I wanted to create pages like Skyrim:Unique Weapons and Skyrim:Unique Armor, which are lovely displays of our editing capabilities, while allowing our editors more in-depth reading opportunities.
There is nothing that kills an editor's desire to work more than for their work to be sidelined for something as non-sacred as something like a table. I was intending to use this project to help me get back into the site after my leave for medical reasons, I didn't want to have to defend it again. Don't get me wrong, I am willing to throw away good work in the face of the site's editors disagreeing with my efforts, and have done so in the past. But having a project I've been working on for almost a whole year face that fate at the eleventh hour? I don't think I can do that. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 13:23, 11 August 2014 (GMT)
I have no comment right now on the scope of the project, but I really like AKB's redesign of the Unique Items. Something that always annoyed me about the table was that it seemed very clinical, and was just full of stats with no substance. The redesign is more fluid, and seems much more pleasing to read. Having real pictures of the items is also infinitely better than a bunch of icons. The only thing I would like to see is a TOC, so that I know at-a-glance what's on the page. --Enodoc (talk) 13:35, 11 August 2014 (GMT)
I'm away from home and computer right now, so I can't write the lengthy defense that AKB's and my work deserves, but I support the original transclusion form of the project. Tables are boring, a chore to read, and not engaging. Transclusion pages are not. --AN|L (talk) 09:59, 11 August 2014 (EDT)
I agree that the transclusion-style page is pretty, that is without question. However, I am concerned about the loss of sortability and the size of the page more than anything else. The unique items page is my, as a reader, most used page in the entirety of UESP, and I can not find the information I'm looking for on AKB's revamp, and I can on the current version. I want to emphasize that we please do not look at this discussion from a "what looks attractive" perspective and instead focus on core functionality and purpose of the page.
@ AKB: I think your images are great. I don't question the quality of the images, but the items still look generic. The Steel Battleaxe of Fiery Souls is still a Steel Battleaxe, and that's 180px by 180px of a Steel Battleaxe. Some of the images have backgrounds that actually make the item very difficult to see, like the Blade of Sacrifice, but that is irrelevant for purposes of this discussion. As for your remark about interesting information on an item, that was not my point at all. Nettlebane, for instance, is an exception, and many more unique items like Valdr's Lucky Dagger, simply have a very short associated quest and nothing more to be said. More of the text on its page is taken up by a redundant note on its smithing details (which are already on the right side table) than by its actual details. We also shouldn't just make up things to add just to beef up a page's contents; we should only document what exists and is relevant, and for a vast majority of unique items that's not a lot (which is okay, but devalues the page revamp).
Lastly, I'm sorry if you would lose interest in the project. I would be happy to take over any remaining work to do if you should choose to no longer contribute to it. I want to emphasize that my goal is not to devalue you or your work, just that I believe the wiki and its readers are better served by what we have now and that the tables are more practical, versatile, and distilled than a list of transclusions. ∬(RisingDusk)dxdy 14:31, 11 August 2014 (GMT)
What information do you find it useful to sort by in the tables? Robin Hood  (talk) 15:24, 11 August 2014 (GMT)

() The fact of the matter is, as it stands currently, you are the only person who is opposed to AKB's work. This site runs on community consensus; one user is not community consensus. •WoahBro►talk 15:31, 11 August 2014 (GMT)

@ Robin: Item type (War Axe, etc.), tempering details, and damage primarily.
@ WoahBro: The fact of the matter is, as it stands currently, 5 people of all editors on the site have weighed in (including AKB/Anil themselves, the people working on the project), and this thread has been active for less than 5 hours. ∬(RisingDusk)dxdy 15:37, 11 August 2014 (GMT)
While it's not quite as useful as sorting, item type and tempering are easily searchable. Damage would certainly be much more useful in a table than in individual entries, though, I can't deny that. Of course, there's nothing saying that we can't do both. It's more maintenance (although something similar to the Item Data template would take a lot of the work out of it), but it gives you the option to have a nice presentation at the top, while maintaining the ability to sort at the bottom. Robin Hood  (talk) 17:35, 11 August 2014 (GMT)
Yeah I've tried searching them before; it works but it's not as ideal as the table. While I love the idea of a compromise, just the transclusion of 110+ items is going to be so large that the page will become indigestible. I don't think mixing and matching the styles together will do the page any good. Thanks for the input, though! :) I think if everyone is in favor of the transclusion style I'm going to have to cache off a version of the page on my user page for my own personal use in playing the game and update it on my own. That way I can still do the things I think are very important but won't be possible anymore. ∬(RisingDusk)dxdy 18:28, 11 August 2014 (GMT)
I'd also like to see the table format stick around in some form or another. I love the individual item pages, but having huge transclusions on a list page isn't very practical. Maybe we could take a leaf out of the lorespace book and use the alphabetical list format. That way, the original tables can remain as an overview, and the length of the transclusions can be chopped down. Or we could just link the item names to the individual pages in the table? (Also this is kinda tl;dr so forgive me if I'm being repetitive with these suggestions.) —Legoless (talk) 21:22, 11 August 2014 (GMT)
Having the item names be links to the individual tables is the solution I proposed in my first post and one I definitely agree with. I'm willing to compromise if we can come up with some neat organization with far shortened transclusions like you're describing, though. Can you provide some good examples of where that is done now? It sounds like it could be a great middleground. ∬(RisingDusk)dxdy 21:39, 11 August 2014 (GMT)
Lore:Artifacts is one. If there are too few items to make alphabetical sorting practical, perhaps dividing it between weapons/armor/clothing/jewellery/misc is the way to go. —Legoless (talk) 21:45, 11 August 2014 (GMT)

() Hrmmm, that does look pretty good! Fortunately in the lore namespace there isn't much need for tabular information, but maybe we can still apply that philosophy here. AKB did mention he made Skyrim:Unique_Weapons and Skyrim:Unique_Armor which could totally be applicable here. Here's an idea (and it might be what you meant, Legoless): What if we keep the tables as they are (with links) in Unique Items, and then add a header to the Unique Items page similar to the Lore:Artifacts header that has links to "Weapons", "Armor", "Clothing", "Jewelry", "Miscellaneous". Then on THOSE pages we could have the transclusions. That way AKB's work is preserved, the transclusions are there for those who like them, but the table remains for the irreplaceable functionality it has. What are everyone's thoughts on that? ∬(RisingDusk)dxdy 21:55, 11 August 2014 (GMT)

I still do not see how these tables provide any actual functionality. One of the stated goals of this project is to get rid of those tables and make them more like pages such as Morrowind:Artifacts. It would be like trying to preserve this table after I finished page's face lift, it would be redundant.
I'm be barely willing to compromise on this, and only just on this, but I would still be utterly displeased with the result on the grounds of the inherit redundancy of having both versions of this article on the site at the same time, and the inherit flaws with this table. Again, the table provides less information about any given item's stats then my infoboxes do, and it's essentially comparing apples to oranges. Yes, both are fruit, but they're two radically different kinds of fruit that a comparison is basically unneeded. I went through all of this effort to kill those tables in for a much better looking and informative version. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 22:09, 11 August 2014 (GMT)
The value of a table and the value of a list are interlinked. They are linked insofar as they are valuable only for certain thresholds of entries in them. The artifacts page before transclusions was a poor table because it had so few entries that sorting wasn't very valuable (you could get all that information at a glance) and the tables actually looked downright bad because they were so short. Furthermore, in the unique case of artifacts, every item has a unique appearance, and a table doesn't showcase those fancy appearances. Compare that to unique items with over three times the number of entries in the tables and where most items use generic item skins, and the table becomes much, much more valuable for organizing the information. Meanwhile, consider the converse: a list looks really good (like Skyrim:Artifacts) when there are few entries, because the lower number of entries keeps the page reasonably sized and keeps the information easy enough to access. If you try to take triple the items of the artifacts page and use the same list format, the page becomes massive, hard to distill information from, and far less readable.
There is a place and a time for both a list and a table. One is not innately superior to the other. I think Artifacts is the perfect place for a list, whereas I think unique items is the perfect place for a table. ∬(RisingDusk)dxdy 23:25, 11 August 2014 (GMT)
I want to make many points that came to mind when reading this discussion:
  1. When I first came across the unique items page, I was actually disappointed that it was not already more like the artifacts page. RisingDusk wanted a focus on core functionality and "the purpose of the page" rather than appearance, but this is something of a false dichotomy, since one thing I like to be able to do is to actually compare items' appearance (or see if they have a unique appearance at all). Currently only the complete armor/clothing set images in the galleries are actually (somewhat) comparable on the page.
  2. Many of the existing table entries are already too tall for medium to small screen sizes. I have a 1366x768 screen on the laptop I'm using, and when I look at the unique item page, some of the weapon columns are very thin due to the table of contents. This is easily fixed by a {{NewRight}} (assuming that that doesn't cause a problem for other resolutions), but even so, the Zephyr entry takes up a whole screen by itself. Similarly, if you sort by a column other than name, the Linwe's set pieces each take up most of a screen.
    1. If the point of the page is to aid comparison of stats/type/tempering, then several entries are too vertically stretched to be convenient for this purpose. Notes about acquisition, bugs, and miscellany should mostly be removed in this case (in favor of the items' individual pages, which I agree should really be linked from these tables, even if the existing format is kept).
    2. If the point of the page is to collect general information about these items, and not just the game stats, then tables are a very bad format, because the columns seem too skinny even for fairly restrained notes.
    3. If you're comparing, say, the stats of different armor pieces to decide what to acquire, isn't this already undermined by the somewhat arbitrary division into artifact/unique/specialty items? I'm puzzled, not by the idea that you'd want a table that sorts different items by stat X, but by the idea that you'd want such a table that includes only non-artifact unique items. What is the motivation for having a sortable table specific to unique items (rather than, say, one that lists every non-generic item)? Is this something that's inherently of interest, or something that is just the next best thing to the table you'd rather have?
  3. While I like aspects of the new item pages, I think that there's some excessive duplication. For instance, copying information about a set to every set item's page seems cumbersome; it feels like each unique set should get its own page, and the individual items should redirect to their set? I'm also not sure why information about tempering seems to be in the text for every item, when it's just duplicating the information in the right sidebar.
Quantheory (talk) 06:37, 12 August 2014 (GMT)
Thanks for your thoughts, Quan. It sounds like, from reading your post, that you appreciate parts of both styles. I agree that the notes sections on some of the items currently in the unique items list are cumbersome, and you're absolutely right that most of those notes belong on the pages for those items. You must understand, though, that prior to AKB's work, these items didn't have their own pages to put those notes on, but now that they do, I think many can be migrated and the table can be made even more useful for users like yourself with lower resolutions. I also absolutely agree about having a NewRight template on that page... The TOC gets in the way of the first table something fierce. I do think acquisition and smallish notes are important, and we can never cater to every audience (Everything looks bad and is hard to decipher on a mobile device, list and table and everything in between). I also don't think skinny columns are an issue; arguably I think smaller columns are better.
You also bring up a more philosophical point, but I'll comment on it regardless. We document what is in the game, which are the components of a set, such as the Thieve's Guild armor. Because of that, pages exist and rows in a table exist based on the items that are actually available for players to obtain. If it worked like an outfit in-game, then it would be different, but since it doesn't, this is how we document the game.
Lastly, sometimes people compare items not to decide what to use, but to decide on more esoteric things like how to decorate their homes. It isn't very relevant to discuss all the nuances of how people play the game, but I'll speak for myself and say that semantically, an artifact is something I put on a weapon plaque, but unique items are things I order on weapon racks. Sometimes it is based on what people want to use, but even then, artifacts are easy to compare to unique items already. Furthermore, since you mentioned it, the notion of even separating artifacts and unique items comes from the subjective feeling that "these items we call artifacts feel more important to us than the potentially random one-off items in unique items". This also makes it "feel" more appropriate for them to have huge pictures and big called-out paragraphs on their list compared to less important items. Hopefully all of that makes sense. :) ∬(RisingDusk)dxdy 10:35, 12 August 2014 (GMT)

() Can we get some sort of agreement/consensus called on this? I don't mean to rush things, but this thread hasn't had any additional posts for over two weeks, and all the item pages are loaded and ready to go, all we need is a format to transclude them into. I'm still in favor of the pure transclusion format. --AN|L (talk) 13:50, 31 August 2014 (GMT)

I think I come down on the side of pure transclusion as well. I still don't really see the use of the table sort per se. If you want to, say, compare weapons purely by a game stat, like damage, you would presumably could use a table of all weapons of a given type, regardless of generic/specialty/unique/artifact status (such a table doesn't exist, but maybe it should). If you want to compare weapons by some more subjective metric, e.g. appearance, or how "special" a weapon seems, that information is not something that you can even get from the tables currently. I understand that RisingDusk sees some kind of utility in these tables, but I still don't see what they are good for. (I admit that this is in part because I feel like the criteria used to divide "unique" from artifact or specialty items are somewhat contrived anyway.)
Besides this, my only real objection to the new articles is the matter of duplication of information, and I think that that's something that can be dealt with by tweaking the item pages, not an objection to the format itself. -Quantheory (talk) 03:10, 1 September 2014 (GMT)
I think the pure transclusion format seems to work best here. As for the value of sortable tables, I can see their use in some ways, but unfortunately our pages aren't set up in such a way that the value would really be there. It would take a lot more work and changes to get them to that point, so the pure transclusion format seems the better choice as it stands. — ABCface 04:17, 1 September 2014 (GMT)
It looks like this discussion comes down heavily in favor of my intended version, and as such I'm going to go ahead with this project once again. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 03:38, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

[edit] #save on pages with #load

I believe I've finally gained some insight into what's going on with #save not working properly, especially if they also have a #load on them. I've implemented a preliminary fix which, while not ideal, should confirm whether I'm on the right track or not. As is always the case with these things, existing pages may still have problems. Please let me know if any newly saved pages show problems that seem to be related to this issue (the most common of which are page icons breaking or saved data from one page not appearing on another). Robin Hood  (talk) 19:57, 14 August 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Artifact Summary

I've just done a rewrite to the Artifact Summary template. As far as I can tell, everything looks the same, but please let me know if you spot any issues. Dawnguard artifacts will appear a bit weird until I edit those entries, but there aren't many and they'll be fixed shortly. Also, there may be the occasional case where a parameter that was set to 0 would previously not display and now it will. I think this is probably the better behaviour overall, and if the parameter shouldn't be displayed, it can be set to blank or removed entirely. Please let me know if you spot any oddities other than that. Robin Hood  (talk) 18:01, 15 August 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Online Achievement Locations

There are at least a few ESO achievements tied to events that happen at specific locations. I'm thinking of Crime Pays, Give to the Poor, Lightbringer, and I Like M'aiq specifically. We don't have a lot of information for most of these yet (which is a separate issue), but I believe that there are few enough spawn points for each one (1-3 per zone) that it might be reasonable to put them on the map. There are a few for M'aiq already, but I don't think the other three have them. Should we put them on the map now? Never? After we know which achievements share spawn points? (I think that Crime Pays, Give to the Poor, and Lightbringer all spawn at the same locations along paths.) Also, is it worth putting them on the individual zone pages, or start individual ones (as M'aiq already has)? Maybe some of these have obvious answers, but I don't know what the "policy" is about what goes on the map.

(There's also the question of how we're handling achievements in general, but I've been assuming that it will work something like Skyrim, where most will be redirects to relevant quest/npc/zone/topic pages, and a few will get individual pages.)

-Quantheory (talk) 06:56, 23 August 2014 (GMT)

I've never spent much time working on the map myself, but I would agree that it would be worth putting those on there. From reading the official forums regarding the first three, I agree that they share spawn points, and according to the UESPlog they all come under the title "Scripted Events" (not sure if that's a label Dave's given them or not), so we could make a combined page with that title. Such a page could also include other scripted events that don't go towards achievements, like the Conjurer who needs saving from his conjuration and other such things. --Enodoc (talk) 11:53, 23 August 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Hotlinking images from the wiki

I noticed someone in the official forums used a hotlink to one of our images. Is that allowed or it should be rehosted somewhere and use some kind of attribution?

The comment in question is http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1218442#Comment_1218442

Moinante (talk) 15:32, 23 August 2014 (GMT)

I don't see a problem with it. It would obviously be different for small sites that host large image files, where hotlinking puts strain on their servers. That's just a forum user linking to a picture, which is better than uploading it somewhere as their own without any kind of attribution. —Legoless (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Interview Help

Jeancey is in a position to interview some ESO staff, and needs lore question to ask them. Please post them here. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 19:49, 30 August 2014 (GMT)

We have a whole topic full of ESO lore discrepancies here to comb through. I could put together a list if needed, but I'm gonna assume we don't want the entire interview to be about retconned minutia. —Legoless (talk) 20:07, 30 August 2014 (GMT)
If you would do that, sorting out the more minor ones, that'd be fine. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 20:09, 30 August 2014 (GMT)
I'd certainly like a question or two about Ebonarm. Has he been abandoned, or can we expect more on him in the future? If the latter, why was he removed from From the Memory Stone of Makela Leki? If he was abandoned, did Bethesda abandon him after Daggerfall without explicitly acknowledging it, or did ZeniMax make the decision when developing ESO?
Did several Akaviri races take part in the invasion led by Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal? If so, which ones? What are the politics like in Akavir; what prompted the invasion?
What is the leadership structure of the Thalmor?
Was there any lore-related reason for the spelling and grammar revisions in the ESO versions of older TES books?
Since many older TES books have been repackaged in ESO to fit into the Second Era, what does that say about the state of scholarship during the Third Era?
What was the relationship like between the Alessian Empire and the First Empire of the Nords?
What specifically prompted the War of Righteousness?
Is Empress Herda, mentioned in Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/Valenwood, the same as Empress Hestra?
Will ESO ever delve into the background and origins of Tiber Septim? If not, was it ever planned to do so during development? If so, why was it abandoned?
What relationship does the Staff of Towers bear with the Staff of Chaos? When was the Staff of Towers made and then disassembled?
When did the Aldmer begin to make their own Towers?
Are there any other failed Towers similar to the Doomcrag?
Is Falinesti a Tower? If so, whose Tower? Who made it?
When and how did Betnikh revert back to Breton control?
What relationship does the Mabrigash tribe have with the mabrigash seen in TES III?
From a lore perspective, what are the origins of the Cyrodilic names for the Eight Divines? Akatosh, Kynareth, Dibella, etc.
Did Alessia really appear to Marukh, or was it something else masquerading as Alessia? Or was he simply a crazy monkey? By the way, was Marukh an Imga?
I may have more later. Insignificant RevisionsThreatsEvidence 21:13, 30 August 2014 (GMT)
Since I've been looking at Souls and the Loremaster's Archive today: When a soul is trapped by a soul gem and ends up in the Soul Cairn, does that happen at the moment of death, or when the soul gem is spent? I.e., in cases where people have communicated with a soul in a gem, are they communicating with a soul in the Soul Cairn, or someone trapped in the gem? Also, neither animus geodes nor the gems used by Molag Bal seem to follow the same rules; are these not connected to the Soul Cairn?
Also, I second the question about Dir-Kamal. I'd assumed that the army was made up of the "ice demons" said to live in Akavir, but that was never explained (though it's never even been clear to me whether the ice demons are some kind of elemental, or flesh-and-blood beings that just happen to tolerate the cold very well).
Finally, why is it that Peryite is the one Daedric Prince that doesn't seem to have tried anything interesting during the Soulburst? Maybe I've missed something, but all the other Princes seem to be at least as active as they normally are, many executing grand schemes of one sort or another, whereas Peryite hasn't made an appearance at all. -Quantheory (talk) 22:17, 30 August 2014 (GMT)
Have the founding stories of Pelagiad, Cropsford, Hackdirt and Bleaker's Way (all Third Era settlements) been retconned?
Why is Almalexia (the city which surrounds Mournhold) not present in ESO? Also, why are the Hands of Almalexia serving as regular guardsmen?
How should the existence of Black-Briar Mead and Daedric Crescents in the Second Era be reconciled?
Are the "rieklings" encountered in Eastmarch supposed to be the small blue humanoids of Solstheim, or are they just regular goblins?
Can you give some background on the Knights of the Eight we see in Cyrodiil?
Are all players considered to be Heroes?
When can we expect an explanation for the various out-of-time books?
Legoless (talk) 22:51, 30 August 2014 (GMT)
I want to clear a couple things up, since even I can answer some of these questions.
Legoless, we have 3 separate explanations for so called out-of-time books, can people PLEASE stop talking about it. The Lusty Argonian Maid was plagiarized, the Septimus book was an elder scroll back in time thingy (or at least tongue in cheek reference to such an event) and the loading screen for the Grandaren ruins provides an explanation for any other of those types of books.
Along the same lines, ME, the answer I got to the typos and such was a transcription error thing, which is pretty common in our world during the similar technological period. They did say, however, that they would be willing to fix any typos in ESO specific things, such as the quest journal entries and obviously in dialogue captions. I suggest that we modify the sic tag to put them all in a category by game? Or maybe JUST for ESO pages?
I have no idea what you are talking about by Pelagiad, since that is on Vvardenfell, but the other three, there isn't anything at all in Oblivion that says they were founded during that era. Why can't they just be older settlements? We know the founding story of bleaker's way, but we don't know WHEN that happened. Hackdirt is located on a rich mining era, there could easily have been previous settlements there, same with Cropsford.
Almalexia could have been built up around the city of Mournhold later on, though I was always under the impression that Almalexia and Mournhold were just two names for the same actual city, with Mournhold being the official name and Almalexia being a more colloquial name.
The Black-Briar family is present in ESO. They could still make beer. Not an inconsistency. Likewise, we know that the Daedric Crescents were used by Mehrunes Dagon's forces at the Battlespire, but nothing says that was when they were FIRST used. Only that after that event, they tried to destroy them all.
ME, I think we decided there was enough evidence that Marukh was an Imga with the additions in ESO.
In terms of Tiber Septim, this answers a question that someone on IRC asked as well. The Alliance war and the fighting between the factions ends when Tiber Septim becomes emperor. There likely won't be a stable ruby throne until that occurs, in the 850s or so (iirc). (that answer was half bethesda, half me).
That's all I got right now. Unfortunately, Paul Sage was supposed to be there for PAX, but ended up not being able to make it. Of the people who were there, they mainly can answer questions on Art for Characters and Models, and one person on the content team who can answer some questions on the soonest future content patches. So Those are the questions we need for Monday :) The art guy also just really liked the lore, so he had a few answers he knew from conversations within the team. Jeancey (talk) 06:47, 31 August 2014 (GMT)
We did decide there was enough evidence to treat Marukh as an Imga, but it never hurts to get something like that corroborated straight from the horse's mouth.
The probable birth of Tiber Septim is 246 years after the Alliance War begins. If they've said the Alliance War continues until Tiber Septim's rise to power, ask whether and how previous information on the late Second Era has been retconned to accommodate that. How does the "transcription" of the Second Era which they're conveying with ESO differ from the ones we've seen previously?
And, if the Alliance War drags on for over two centuries, it begs the question: in the end, how many years will the events of ESO encompass? Excluding the timey-whimey quests, of course. Daggerfall was stretched over several years, iirc, while Morrowind and Oblivion both apparently took place within a year. What portion of the Tamrielic timeline will the events of ESO claim? Insignificant RevisionsThreatsEvidence 07:40, 31 August 2014 (GMT)
I actually asked about the second one there, and he didn't have an answer on how long the events take place over. Also, I don't think that they were saying that the previous information about the end of the second era was incorrect. My gist of it was that the ruby throne isn't stable until Tiber Septim. They didn't actually say that, but that's the overall theme of what they did say. That could simply be a reference to the fact that there wasn't a dynasty in place until Tiber Septim. That fits in with what they said and the previous info we have about the time period. Jeancey (talk) 07:47, 31 August 2014 (GMT)

() Some questions for character art (assuming that includes concept art):

Who drew the concept art for Sir Cadwell?

Why does Sheogorath have the same attire as he did in Skyrim?

Why were Argonians and Lamia designed to have breasts? Do they serve a biological function? (I know this seems like a silly question, but plenty of people have been asking and speculating about this, and a clear explanation would be great.)

Are there any plans to add Akaviri-styled arms and armour into the game?

—<({QT>> 10:06, 31 August 2014 (GMT)

It's made abundantly clear in Morrowind that Pelagiad is an Imperial settlement. Also, my question was how should the existence of Black-Briar Mead and Daedric Crescents be reconciled, not whether they could. We can make up excuses all day, but I was under the impression that this was a chance to actually get some official answers. —Legoless (talk) 21:12, 31 August 2014 (GMT)
Pelagiad doesn't appear in ESO, so I'm confused about what your question is about. I can ask about the others on Monday, but they weren't as knowledgeable about lore, unfortunately. Jeancey (talk) 21:20, 31 August 2014 (GMT)
It's mentioned in the Letter to Rana. —Legoless (talk) 21:22, 31 August 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Redirects to Broader Subjects

Simple question: is there any use for this category? With 22,000 pages in it, I think only a bot could actually make any practical use of it, and I can't think of what that use might be. Or from the standpoint of looking at the redirect page itself, is it actually useful to know that the redirect goes to a broader subject? Yes, most of the redirects do indeed go to broader subjects (e.g., a specific weapon goes to a Weapons page), but how is that helpful?

And if people agree that it's not helpful, is it actually worth it to have the bot go through and remove it from all 22k pages? Seems like a lot of edits for very little gain. Or should we just stop adding it to the various redirects and let it go stale? Robin Hood  (talk) 05:48, 31 August 2014 (GMT)

I believe it was under the vision that everything needs a category. We basically have a few useful redirect categories and the rest just go in the broader subjects one. Is there a particular reason it isn't useful to continue doing it? I mean, if you can't find it in the category or you can't find it because it doesn't have a category, why not just add it to the category? SOMEONE might be able to find it in there or something. I just don't see any real reason not to have it. Jeancey (talk) 06:52, 31 August 2014 (GMT)
I'd like to see those bloated categories split into per game, or sorted by game, somehow. They are useful in that pages should have a category, otherwise a redirect could exist for years where it isn't needed, but trying to find a page within them if you aren't looking for something specific is a nightmare. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:09, 31 August 2014 (GMT)
I generally agree with the idea that pages need categories. Most of the pages I looked at already had at least one other category, though only one that specifically related to redirects, so if we think it's important to categorize our redirects based on their function, we won't want to remove it. Silencer's suggestion of making it gamespace-specific (e.g., [[Category:Skyrim-Redirects to Broader Subjects]]) would certainly be doable, if that's the way we want to go. While there would still be very large numbers in the larger spaces, it might make using the categories more manageable. If we separate them based on actual namespace rather than parent namespace, which I think is probably the better choice here, it would certainly make them more readable. Robin Hood  (talk) 16:06, 1 September 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Set Pages

Somewhat similar to the above discussion on the Unique Items page formatting, I was thinking that we should have set pages for items. It's rather cumbersome to have to list on every item page for an item that is part of set "also has gloves, boots, hat, etc". Sets are something new to the Elder Scrolls (the only items that could conceivably be called a set we've seen before were Trueflame and Hopesfire, and they don't actually have any effects when wielded together) so we don't have a definition for it, but I'd say a set would be any two unique items that either go together thematically (Thieves Guild, Guild Master's, Jester's, etc) or have an effect that triggers from wearing multiple items together (Miraak's stuff, Ahzidal's, Deathbrand, Shrouded, etc). The question is, should be we keep the individual item pages? --AN|L (talk) 14:08, 31 August 2014 (GMT)

There's no point having set pages listing the same information as individual articles, so I would think that in the interests of avoiding redundancy it should be either one or the other. I'm of the opinion that it's better to have articles about the sets than to have individual articles for each piece within them, as there's rarely enough to say about each piece of Thieves Guild armor to fill a whole article. Listing them as sets rather than individual pieces also allows us to mention set bonuses in one place rather than having to mention it on the article for every piece--which, again, allows us to avoid redundancy . Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 18:08, 31 August 2014 (GMT)
I think I'd prefer set pages, and then making the item pages into redirects. Off the top of my head, the criteria for considering pieces of armor part of a set might be:
  • They have extra effects when those specific pieces are worn together OR
  • Their names share a prefix or suffix unique to those items, AND the pieces can be obtained either in the same location, or as part of the same quest line.
-Quantheory (talk) 03:21, 1 September 2014 (GMT)
I'm in favor of just set pages myself, which I didn't make clear in the original post, simply because it streamlines the available information better. Searching for an item and being redirected to a set page is better than going to the item's page, the having to click on the set.
Quantheory, I like your definition much better than mine, though of course it would have to be specified that the item must at least be a unique item so we don't end up considering Dwarven armor a set, for example. In general, it's pretty obvious whether something is a set or not. Just so it can all be listed out, I've compiled a list of sets in the game.
Miraak's stuff is the only question here, you receive all six of his items by killing him, but only the robes, boots, and gloves have effects when worn together. I'd be in favor of just counting the robes, boots and gloves as a set. --AN|L (talk) 14:31, 1 September 2014 (GMT)
I am fine with this, but am unsure of how to present a page for a set of items in a pleasing manner. None of our current templates are geared towards this sort of thing, we'll probably need a new one designed for this. The item box would have to describe the attributes of the whole set when worn together, as well as the unique traits for each item.
I'm also opposed to treating weapons as a set, simply due to how few twin weapons there are. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 04:33, 3 September 2014 (GMT)
Anil, your suggestion of requiring items to be unique sort of makes sense to me, since I certainly wasn't considering collections like Dwarven armor to be a set. I was trying to rule generic items out with the they-are-acquired-together clause, but explicitly ruling out generic items works just as well. There are a couple of non-unique specialty gear that may meet my criteria, and I think that those could be considered sets as well. But they are already grouped together on the specialty gear page, and since they aren't unique they don't really need to be split off into separate pages, so there's no work needed there anyway.
I could take a crack at the template issue, but I don't have the time/experience to deliver anything quickly, so someone else might want to try instead. In the meantime, just grouping the items together on set pages with redirects might be a start (maybe not the way we want things to look eventually, but an OK transitional stage, and not wasted effort just to bring everything together).
I have no opinion about whether or not to include weapons. I briefly thought about the fact that ESO sets tend to combine weapons/armor, but I think that ESO is really a completely different beast due to the sheer quantity of sets (both based on effects and based on name/questline coincidence), and that's not even getting into the issues craftable sets, or sets that drop in different styles/levels based on your alliance. For Skyrim, I think that Miraak is indeed the only questionable case. There are actually three possibilities that I see:
  1. Robes, boots, and gloves are a set, based purely on the effect (everything else being separate).
  2. The above plus the mask, because they are all armor.
  3. The above plus the two weapons, because from a lore/name/aesthetic/acquisition perspective they all go together.
I think that I'd prefer 3 or 1. -Quantheory (talk) 06:38, 3 September 2014 (GMT)

() While a new template would be good, the pages could be created without it. I was thinking of a page with a header at the top describing the set bonuses, background on the items, etc and then having the rest of the page just be the item boxes. It wouldn't be perfect, but it's something. I agree that ESO is quite a different beast as far as sets are concerned, with sets that contain varying numbers of items and different bonuses for different numbers of items. It's prolly good we're doing this now though, since the ESO sets will require some sort of similar documentation at some point.

As for the weapons, I don't think that them being the only twin weapons in Skyrim should disclude them. Merging the two has already been discussed and they meet the criteria for a set in all other ways. The template for dealing with weapon sets will need to be developed at some point to deal with ESO, so I don't see why it can't be done now. --AN|L (talk) 18:07, 3 September 2014 (GMT)

Actually, I'd go so far as to say the the first page or two should be created without templates, unless someone wants to do a mockup in a sandbox. It's easier to create a template from an existing example—where things like formatting, autolinking and such become more obvious—than it is to just imagine one up from scratch. Robin Hood  (talk) 18:45, 3 September 2014 (GMT)
Alright, so I tried using the current unique items template to deal with the set, the result can be found here. The current template actually doesn't work too badly in terms of creating a box that sums up everything. The main problem I see currently is how to incorporate the details of the individual set pieces. I used slashes to separate the armor rating for each individual piece, but it's not clear what rating belongs to what piece. --AN|L (talk) 03:05, 6 September 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Image numbering

The edit summary of this page move from File:ON-quest-Carzog's Demise (quest).jpg to File:ON-quest-Carzog's Demise (quest) 01.jpg („Add number to allow more quest images”) stirred my curiosity, and I tried to find out more about the underlying policy – without much success. I found a few discussions about image naming standards, but nothing about the numbering. In case I missed anything, my apologies for beating a dead horse! :)

This is what I found under Help:Images#Naming Images:

"Use the full, in-game name of the subject of the image (ie: File:OB-item-Azura's Star.jpg, not AzurasStar.jpg). For additional images of the same subject, numerals should be added to the file names (ie: File:SR-quest-The Only Cure 01.jpg, File:SR-quest-The Only Cure 02.jpg, etc.)."

Taken literally, this means that the name of the first image of a series remains unnumbered, while additional images are numbered, starting with 01 for the second image. This approach is not frequently used, but here’s an example:

Much more frequently, a series of images of the same subject starts with "01" for the first image etc., while there is no such image without a number:

Equally often, however, we find this pattern:

… Which is the pattern that I would like to suggest as the standard numbering method, for these reasons:

Very frequently, a series of images is added to a solitary image of a subject at a much later time. If numbering always started with the second image, with "02", and all images without a number were considered to be "the first image", there would be no need to rename them and add the "01" later. Using the "01" results in two different kinds of "first images": Those which are the first of a series, numbered "01", and those without a number, which are solitary images (but might become the first of a series later on, in which case they need to be renamed). Also, the message “No file by this name exists“ has two meanings as long as we use the numbering starting with "01": First, an image of the subject does indeed not exist; second, an image of the subject exists, but it is the first in series of images of that subject and therefore numbered with "01". As there are so many images that will never be part of a series, it would also be impractical to add "01" to all solitary images. I think that a clear policy never to use "01" and instead to upload first or solitary images without a number, and to start numbering images, if necessary, with "02", would make it easier to achieve consistency over time, and to maintain it. --Holomay (talk) 10:36, 1 September 2014 (GMT)

Oh, that was me.
Most of the NPC pages have only one image and will probably be like that in the future. That is the reason I don't use any number as a suffix. On the other hand, quests will probably have several of them and starting the numbers with 02 or not using numbers when they will be needed in the future didn't feel "right", so I started using 01 by default even when only took one screenshot for the quest.
Since no one corrected me (I am a newcomer, don't forget) I assumed it was the proper way to do it. Moinante (talk) 12:35, 1 September 2014 (GMT)
It's not just you Moinante, that's the way I do it as well. Unless I take two screenshots of a place, I wouldn't upload a place image with a suffix. However, quests will always have multiple images eventually, so I upload a first quest image with 01. --Enodoc (talk) 12:59, 1 September 2014 (GMT)
I don't get involved with taking images as I play on PS3 atm, but the explanation of the reason for adopting no numerical suffix for the first image and then .02 for the second etc. makes sense to me and will enable greater management and consistency. Biffa (talk) 13:31, 1 September 2014 (GMT)
I've always used the third example (no number, 02, 03), and the reasoning here makes sense. This isn't exactly a big deal so I don't see the need to actually move images around, but setting a standard seems fine. —Legoless (talk) 13:48, 1 September 2014 (GMT)
As Enodoc wrote, it's not just you Moinante – and that I started my post with a link to your edit was definitely not meant as a criticism of it! :) Looking at image names in different categories and namespaces, I just see the inconsistency in how numbering is handled, and as so many new ESO images are being uploaded, I think that a clearer policy would be helpful. I agree that the vast majority of quest pages will (and should) eventually have multiple images, but I believe there will always be some very small quests that will just have one image. And other categories are much harder to deal with in terms of numbering – many NPCs have or deserve a detailed article with multiple story images, but there's also a huge number of NPCs that will always have just the main image. Then there are place images, interior images etc. – all of these categories will grow over time (even Morrowind articles are still being worked on!), and it is difficult to determine which articles will have multiple images and which ones won't. On the other hand, there are categories like ingredient images which will hardly ever see multiple images for a subject. That's why I propose to get rid of the 01, or, if this means too much renaming to achieve consistency, at least not to use it anymore, so that we'll have consistency (no number, 02, 03, ...) in future image names. --Holomay (talk) 15:15, 1 September 2014 (GMT)
Throwing a vote in support of the third option (none, 02, 03). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:38, 1 September 2014 (GMT)

() I always do (none, 02, 03), so I'm going to support it. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 18:03, 1 September 2014 (GMT)

No worries Holomay, I didn't think it was a criticism against me, just pointing out I was the one that moved that image because it wasn't following the same pattern I was using. I am no admin, but support the none, 02, 03 scheme for consistency. Should we use a bot to get rid of all of those extra suffixes? Moinante (talk) 18:23, 1 September 2014 (GMT)
I would like to unify this, although this isn't a high priority. If Robin could comment if his bot could build a list of files which include 1.jpg or 01.jpg, then we'll see about ensuring it's all standardized for the future. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 18:26, 1 September 2014 (GMT)
Also throwing in my support for the third pattern (first un-numbered). -- Hargrimm(T) 18:53, 1 September 2014 (GMT)
The only way the first option makes sense to me is when the unnumbered image is the intro image. But because a lot of the time images get replaced (in particular, the quest intro images are replaced by others over time) because not all are uploaded at the same time or by the same person, it doesn't always come out that way. I've been doing the third way myself, like most people here say they prefer. On another note, even though I've been doing it the whole time, because I was told to, I think I'd actually prefer just "something 2" instead of "something 02". It kind of looks like we have a maximum of 99 or something, and in truth, we rarely even reach 10 ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 00:22, 2 September 2014 (GMT)
I just asked the database for a list, and the bad news is that there are 1467 files that have something similar to 1.<ext>, and that's exluding ones like 11.<ext>. Renaming all of those would definitely be a bot job but glancing at the list, I see several that a human would definitely have to check out first to figure out the best name, or if it should be renamed at all. Anybody wanna volunteer for that job while I program the bot itself? Or is this something we should just implement from now on? Robin Hood  (talk) 05:11, 2 September 2014 (GMT)

() I'll work on this if you can give me a list. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 05:33, 2 September 2014 (GMT)

Sent. Forgot to mention it in the e-mail, but don't worry about naming conflicts at this point. Once we've got a preliminary list, I can have the bot, or maybe even the database, scan through and identify any conflicts. Robin Hood  (talk) 06:05, 2 September 2014 (GMT)
Regarding Dwarfmp's point about 2 vs. 02; is that something to do with alpha-numeric ordering? Without the 0 (assuming no 1), would they get ordered as 11,12,13,...,19,2,20,21,...,29,3,30,..., or as 2,3,4,...,9,10,11,...,19,20,21,...? --Enodoc (talk) 08:23, 2 September 2014 (GMT)
Without the 0 they get sorted incorrectly. While there are basically only four pages that I can think of that have gone over 10 images using the numbering system, Mirabelle Ervine, Delphine, Ulfric, and Galmar, there are others that do so with named images like Legate Rikke (eg npc-Legate Rikke Sovengarde.jpg), and there are more who could eventually have more than 10, Miraak, Lord Harkon. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:49, 2 September 2014 (GMT)
Ah, sorting, I didn't think about that. That makes sense then ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 12:00, 2 September 2014 (GMT)
While we're here, would it be possible to remove any and all forms of forced sorting in files. They don't help anything, the aren't put under a letter like normal pages in categories, and they are a plain nuisance if a file gets renamed as then the forced sort doesn't match the file. I've added some when doing maintenance, but only because there were far more with than without in those particular categories. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:36, 2 September 2014 (GMT)
Proposed renames are on the bot's results page, if anybody wants to take a look. I probably won't actually run the job for a few hours, so if there are any issues, now is the time to let me know. For the ones that remain, I was thinking that I could add a category to them so we can easily review files that end in "1" to see if they're valid. If they are, it's a simple matter of removing the category; if they need renaming, the bot can handle them, or users can do them one-by-one if they feel so inclined. I'm open to suggestions on the category name...anything I came up with sounded patently ridiculous.
Removing sorting from categories could be done as well, though probably as a separate job so as not to confuse the issue. (Just for the record, though, Silencer, if we do remove those category sort keys, Jeancey will want to hurt you. There are roughly 9000 files with sortkeys on them, and Jeancey likes staying ahead of HnB's edit count.) Robin Hood  (talk) 22:00, 2 September 2014 (GMT)
The alternative would be to add them to those missing one, which is nearly 30,000... Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:26, 2 September 2014 (GMT)

() I saw some of the images in the logs proposed for deletion since there is no page that links them. Please don't. Some of them were not linked because there is no page yet but will be in the future (for example place images). I noticed too that will be some renaming problems because there is already a file with the name without the number, like in the first case noted by Holomay Moinante (talk) 22:53, 2 September 2014 (GMT)

I will hurt you Silencer. Where is this list RH? I'll do it myself! :) Kidding. I don't think the sorting is the biggest issue. It is more of an annoyance than an actual detriment. We can continue to remove it as those images are changed or moved, as we have in the past. Or we could get Wabbajak to do it :) Jeancey (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2014 (GMT)
(edit conflict) No problem with the proposed deletions. That's a simple toggle in the bot. I usually leave it on when doing reporting just so people can see which images are unused and think about whether they actually should be deleted or not. I had thought that naming conflicts were reported, but now that you mention it, that check only occurs later in the process when it's about to actually do the move. I'll update my code after dinner and re-run the report. Robin Hood  (talk) 23:35, 2 September 2014 (GMT)
That turned into a significant re-write, but the updated report is there now. Robin Hood  (talk) 05:20, 3 September 2014 (GMT)
Just a comment that may warrant discussion, looking at the results; if we are to apply this to all images, then it will also include maps, icons, loading screens and concept art, which would have (may have) been uploaded with the offending "01" primarily because that's the name of the file as given (in the game data, on the website, etc). For example, File:ON-icon-book-Coldharbour Lore 01.png, File:ON-icon-heraldry-Pattern Fang 01.png, File:ON-load-Auridon 01.jpg, File:ON-map-Castle of the Worm 01.jpg, File:MW-concept-01.jpg. --Enodoc (talk) 08:35, 3 September 2014 (GMT)
Since nobody's objected to Enodoc's point, I'll go ahead with the renaming later tonight. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:53, 4 September 2014 (GMT)
I think the essential difference between them is that maps, icons, loads and concepts are official Bethesda images, while NPC, places, interiors, creatures, quests and items are our own UESP screenshots. So I'm certain of what is going to happen, will you be renaming everything, or just our screenshots? I wasn't sure from your comment which outcome my point above had directed you towards. --Enodoc (talk) 21:06, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

() I can filter those out. I hadn't really thought of it in terms of the fact that they fell into clear groupings. It's not hard to just remove those from the files to rename. Better to not move something that's easy to identify and move later if we want than to move it and then have to put it back later. Robin Hood  (talk) 22:01, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

Okay, here goes nothing. This will take some time, and image links will break temporarily while it does all the moves, then updates the links afterwards. Please don't stop the bot unless it's really doing something horrible, as this isn't the easiest job to resume when it's mid-way through. Robin Hood  (talk) 03:04, 5 September 2014 (GMT)
Okay, it seems to be done. There were some minor bugs on my end, and one major one in the framework I'm using which caused any page that had ever been deleted in its life to not allow me to save changes! Once I'd figured that out and fixed it, we got most of the last few links fixed. It's still reporting some leftovers, but it's 4am here and I'm going to bed. I'll look at this again tomorrow. I think it's just some false reports. Robin Hood  (talk) 08:00, 5 September 2014 (GMT)
Oh crap! Links to the pages that were supposed to be skipped also got changed. Sorry, guys. I'll work on that tomorrow. Gah! Robin Hood  (talk) 08:10, 5 September 2014 (GMT)
I think I have taken care of all dead links on the User:HotnBOThered/Results list, but some of the images listed there still have a 01 suffix. --Holomay (talk) 08:44, 5 September 2014 (GMT)
Okay, just to keep everyone up to date, the bot is now selectively reverting any pages which may have had links altered incorrectly (some may not, but I can't really figure that out from within the revert code). I'm going to make a few tweaks to the original page-renaming code to better handle galleries, which I really just hacked at last night until most were fixed. :-/ Then after lunch, I'll re-run that, and that should re-update only the links that actually changed.
And thanks for looking at the remaining pages, Holomay! I know many would have been false hits because of the screw-up and the galleries, but it's good to know that someone's gone through them. Robin Hood  (talk) 16:43, 5 September 2014 (GMT)
Now I'm confused ... Quickly looking at the links that the bot has just reverted I still see a lot of quest or NPC images that end with 1 or 01. They seem to be the ones that couldn't be renamed because an image without any suffix already existed?! Will these be moved in another run or is it too complicated because the first "free" number has to be determined for every image name/series? --Holomay (talk) 17:18, 5 September 2014 (GMT)
What happened was that the bot updated links for files it hadn't actually moved, leaving links to incorrect images in place. See, for example, this diff. It incorrectly stripped the "01", leaving a duplicate image in the gallery. The undo earlier was just to put those pages that might have been affected back to what they were before the bot ran. I've fixed the bug that caused that, and am now working on the code that handles all the different types of replacements (links, template calls, template parameters, and galleries all have somewhat different formats to deal with). Once that's done, I'll re-run the bot to re-update only the links that should be. Robin Hood  (talk) 20:35, 5 September 2014 (GMT)
Okay, the updated code looks good in test runs, so I'm letting it run for real now. It should be done in about half an hour or so, after which everything should be back to normal. On the bright side, having addressed these issues this time around, they won't happen the next time we have to do a bulk page move. :) Robin Hood  (talk) 21:20, 5 September 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Image numbering (edit break 1)

Sorry to ask again, but I'm still confused about the first part of the bot task, the actual renaming of the images ... :) Your diff example shows a page with a series of images which had a duplicate image for a while: ON-place-Skyshard.jpg - the bot had changed the link ON-place-Skyshard_01.jpg to ON-place-Skyshard.jpg because it was under the impression that during the renaming task, it had changed ON-place-Skyshard 01.jpg to ON-place-Skyshard.jpg. However, this was not possible because a file with that name already existed: ON-place-Skyshard.jpg. We now still have image series such as ON-place-Skyshard.jpg, ON-place-Skyshard 01.jpg, ON-place-Skyshard_02.jpg. If I look at this old version of the bot results, I can see a lot of red links - the successful moves from images with a 1/01 suffix to images without a suffix. Among the blue links, there are a lot of images that were supposed to remain unchanged (maps, icons etc.), but also quest, NPC or place images that could not be renamed because a suffix-less version already existed. These cases are much more complicated because it has to be individually determined if the next free number is 02, 03, 04 etc., so I can perfectly understand if we leave them as they are. I just want to make sure what we are going to do with them. :) Holomay (talk) 06:33, 6 September 2014 (GMT)

As of right now, I'm leaving everything else alone until humans figure out what should be done. That said, if there are patterns that either the database or bot can look for (like the aforementioned cases, where we have images numbered <nothing>, 1, 2...), I can certainly work on either checking or moving those. I just need clear direction on what people want to do. It may make more sense to leave a lot of those as they are, if that's how they're named/numbered in the original source. Robin Hood  (talk) 16:58, 6 September 2014 (GMT)
Oh, and if we do want to renumber the ones that follow the <nothing>, 1, 2 pattern, we need to consider whether they should be moved as:
  • 1 moves to 2, 2 moves to 3, 3 moves to 4, etc., or
  • 1 moves to one higher than the last number in the series (e.g., ON-place-Skyshard 01.jpg moves to ON-place-Skyshard 03.jpg).
The first version is much harder, and would probably be done as a series of bulk moves from highest number to lowest to avoid any overlap, because you can't really check if there are leftover links if something else has been moved into the old file name. So, for example, as part of the first batch, Skyshard 02 would move to Skyshard 03. The bot would then stop and report any leftovers. Humans check any leftover links, then we move on to moving Skyshard 01 to Skyshard 02. Wash, rinse, repeat until all images are renumbered. A lot more work, but it preserves the order of the original series for cases where that may be important.
The second version is much easier overall, and would be done in a single batch like any other bulk move. But, of course, it doesn't preserve the original order. Robin Hood  (talk) 17:26, 6 September 2014 (GMT)
Maybe we should have a closer look at icon, map, loading screen and concept images later, but I think that all UESP screenshots - place, interior, NPC and quest pages - can be moved now. In most cases, the numbers do not represent any chronological order related to the subject; they are just added one after the other as the screenshots come in. In many articles, the placement of the images is not related to their numbers at all, and even to articles in which the image numbers follow a neat top to bottom order, a new image can be added at any time and be placed right in the middle of the text - or even become the new title image. So I think it wouldn't be a problem to do the second, easier version of the bulk move. --Holomay (talk) 18:07, 8 September 2014 (GMT)
Would a third option, in which [no number] moves to one higher than the last number in the series, be any easier than that second option? I have no preference which is done, I was just wondering technically. --Enodoc (talk) 19:01, 8 September 2014 (GMT)
It would be marginally harder, since we'd then have to move all the 1 files to [no number]. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:12, 8 September 2014 (GMT)
Okay, those should all be done now. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:59, 8 September 2014 (GMT)

() If anyone's interested, here are the main groups of files that are left that have "1" files. There are a bunch more that have five or less images in the group, or don't fall into standard groupings with two or more dashes. (Note that there may be slight discrepancies in the numbers, cuz my numbers come direct from the database, which I told to exclude anything that looked like a number higher than ten.)

File Group Total "1" files
SI-concept 134
MW-icon 74
SR-icon 65
AR-interior 58
OB-Map 49
ON-icon 43
OB-icon 25
ON-concept 18
SR-concept 16
ON-map 15
SI-audio 14
OB-npc 13
TR3-place 12
SR-map 11
ON-load 9
MW-Map 7
SK-narrative 7
OB-concept 6
Total Listed: 576
Others: 260

Robin Hood  (talk) 01:02, 9 September 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Disambiguations

Do we have a policy on when one version of disambiguation is used over another? Is it based on importance, or should it always be one of the first two cases (ie, disambiguation for everything that could have it)? For example:

Thanks, Enodoc (talk) 09:52, 12 September 2014 (GMT)

I would say the first example is preferable. All the other ones should probably be changed. —Legoless (talk) 12:49, 12 September 2014 (GMT)
My preference would be to only have full disambig pages when there are 3 or more possibilities. 2 pages should just have mutual {{About}} lines that reference each other, with the most likely wanted page having the normal title (I think this would go in order of Place > Quest > Book). Having a disambig page means that every single user that visits the page will have to click over to another in order to get to what they actually want to read, whereas with {{About}} we can anticipate what they're looking for and have less than half of users needing to click another link. -- Hargrimm(T) 13:08, 12 September 2014 (GMT)
I agree with Hargrimm, though in the case of a mutual About, when one or both of the two pages are large, we may want to consider a disambiguation. There are still people with bandwidth caps or slower connections, and they may not appreciate loading a large page only to find out it's the wrong one. Robin Hood  (talk) 15:31, 12 September 2014 (GMT)
Yeah that would make sense. If the pages have equal importance, like ON:Halls of Torment (place) and ON:Halls of Torment (quest) then a disambig is good; when one is more important than the other (I think The Lightless Oubliette as a place is more important than as a book, for example) then as Hargrimm suggested, {{About}} would probably cover it. --Enodoc (talk) 18:16, 12 September 2014 (GMT)
Some types of pages have more importance than others. This is my order; Skills Races Places and Quests are the most important, followed by Books, Factions and People, then Creatures and important Items (artifacts etc), then Notes and unimportant Items, Classes, and other things (achievements, spells, etc). If two things share the same value (eg Place and Quest) then its a disambig, if they don't (Quest and Creature), then the first gets priority. If there are more than two with the same name, then a disambig is needed but applied after the level of the pages (Quest, disambig, Creature, Note, achievement). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:35, 12 September 2014 (GMT)
I would say, any time there is three or more, for sure. Then if they have equal importance, not necessarily large importance, or if they are the same type of page, (i.e. two NPCs with the same name, two places with the same name), they should also be disambiguated. Jeancey (talk) 18:43, 12 September 2014 (GMT)

() I was going to write down some of my thoughts about disambiguation pages here, and I decided to first brush up my knowledge about the searching features by looking up Help:Searching. Is it possible that the page is considerably outdated? I think the "Go" and "Search" buttons have been removed from the search box quite a while ago?! So far, this discussion only involved disambigs within the same gamespace, but I think it's also necessary to have a look at disambigs including multiple gamespaces, and therefore also at the namespace sensitivity of the search function. --Holomay (talk) 10:15, 17 September 2014 (GMT)

Considerably outdated, though the search icon (magnifying glass) is still there and takes you to the search page. I've seen no sense of namespace sensitivity in the search (e.g. the Oblivion Weapons page when searching from an Oblivion page), but the option is always there in the list. Just as an aside, the problems I've had with Skyrim, Dragonborn, and Online not appearing without a prefix being attached (e.g. sr:weapons) still exist. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:21, 17 September 2014 (GMT)
I thought the namespace prefix were only required if they were de-selected in the preferences page and could be changed at any time. Biffa (talk) 12:05, 17 September 2014 (GMT)
Regarding the discussion so far, I also agree with Hargrimm in only having disambig pages when there are at least 3 possibilities, though I think we should also consider RH's submission that a disambig for only 2 articles is reasonable when at least one of the articles is large. But first I'd like to have another look at when and how we actually end up on disambig pages? Of course, there are no direct links to them. When I use the search box, let's say I type "hide seek", I get this list - Skyrim:Hide and Seek is the first entry, followed by Skyrim:Hide and Seek (game) and Skyrim:Hide and Seek (quest). So I'll only see the disambig page when I click on Skyrim:Hide and Seek, but with a short glance at the search results I already have the necessary information to distinguish the articles. If I type "sr: hide seek", "Skyrim:hide seek" or even "Skyrim:hide and seek", I get the same result list. The only way to directly get to the disambig page seems to be to include the full phrase and to go case sensitive and type "Skyrim:Hide and Seek". Am I missing any other way to get to the disambig pages? (And Silencer, does your result list after typing "weapons" not include Skyrim:Weapons, Dragonborn:Weapons and Online:Weapons? In case you've ever changed your search preferences - have you tried to deselect/save and select/save these namespaces in your search preferences?) --Holomay (talk) 09:56, 20 September 2014 (GMT)
There are certain dab pages which the links always point to the dab page. This happens most often where there are two identically named, mutually exclusive quests, such as Stormcloak and Imperial Legion versions of quests in Skyrim. Since the link almost always applies to both versions of the quest, it goes to the disampbig page and the reader must choose which quest fits their game better. There are other ways (namely people accidentally putting the dab link instead of the specific one and I haven't got around to fixing it yet), but the goal is for people to never see dab pages unless it is 100% necessary. Jeancey (talk) 10:49, 20 September 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Elder Scrolls Online Contests!

Hey everyone! As some of you know, I was at PAXPrime this year. You can read up on my time there on the blog but I do have a contest for you all, with actual, real prizes. :) At every convention this year, ZeniMax gives away a unique in-game pet for Elder Scrolls Online. This pet, the Bristlegut Piglet Pet, is only from these conventions. Due to the extreme kindness of ZeniMax, I received several extra codes at PAX to give away! To this end we are holding three contests, with four winners. The other two contests will be held on the Facebook page and Twitter accounts, but because we are primarily a wiki, the contest here will have two winners!

This contest is very simple, and I hope many of you strive to complete it! All you have to do is get an Online article to featured article status! The first two people to do this will receive a code for the pet! If you aren't good at undertaking such a large task, don't worry! You can also enter the Facebook and Twitter contests! Keep in mind, however, that you can only win once, so if you do win one of the other contests, you become ineligible to win here!

Feel free to ask me any questions about any of the contests. The Facebook and Twitter contests should be posted later today. Good luck, and may the best articles win! Jeancey (talk) 19:28, 18 September 2014 (GMT)

[edit] Proposal of Sorts

First, I hope this is the right place to post this as I had emailed Dave who referred me to the community portal. I've never used a wiki before and I've spent a few weeks being too nervous to post anything as I didn't want to mess up the page or post in the wrong place.

I have used this site for reference now for nearly a year. I started doing a series on my youtube channel where my girlfriend and I read all of the books in Skyrim (I do 1 new book each week but I am capable of doing more). We try to be in character as best we can to bring out the feeling/emotions of the story to the best of our abilities. And I was curious, as I know you guys host images, if you would care to check out the series so far and potentially host the videos within the appropriate pages on the UESP?

I don't want to spam the page with a link so just search gamerpoets on youtube and the series is books unbound (not the early days playlist)

Of course I'm hoping to reach more people, but I also feel, if you all like them of course, that it would be a good addition. Also, I've noticed a few typo's while reading the books from the site. Regardless of if you guys decide that you like the idea of adding the videos of the book readings, would it be ok if I edited some of the word errors on the book pages? I have an idea for a Lore series that I was going to ask help with but its being put on hold until I get a better grasp on it all.

Thank you guys for your time either way. GamerPoets (talk) 06:56, 20 September 2014 (GMT)

Any spelling mistakes on book pages should be taken directly from the game, any that are not can be fixed. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:10, 20 September 2014 (GMT)
ok cool. I've read a few books from the game along side the books on the wiki (16 accords of madness I believe was the first) and the gamer version differed from the wiki version. I'll go back and check = ) ... thanks for the response. GamerPoets (talk) 04:32, 21 September 2014 (GMT)
Because the books appear in multiple games, the book in lorespace may differ from the version in the game you are playing. Just look at the book in the gamespace and it should be identical. If it isn't definitely let someone know which one it is. As for the other thing, we had a discussion a while back and made a choice not to host or link to any videos, except for videos of interviews used for references (I think that has happened once and that's it). So we won't host them. I'm sure someone on the forums would love to see the videos, though. Feel free to create a thread there to post them! Jeancey (talk) 04:36, 21 September 2014 (GMT)
Thank you for the response = ). And I can understand that. I'll make sure to check the book version. I hadn't realized about the gamespace. Shall do.GamerPoets (talk) 06:15, 22 September 2014 (GMT)

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