UESPWiki talk:Oblivion NPC Redesign Project

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Contents 1 Feedback 2 Leveled Lists 3 Order of content 4 Reason for the Delay 5 NPC Existence 6 Example 7 I'm in

[edit] Feedback

First, I'm in favour of the overall idea :) (I've been involved in some of the preliminary offline discussions). Just some minor, random thoughts to add:

• With the schedule, times when NPCs eat can be important for some players, in particular people who like to use Poisoned Apples. It may be useful in the eating part of the schedule to also include a note about whether the NPC has their own source of food (in which case they are also effectively immune to poisoned apples).
• For the inventory contents, I'd vote for only including "noteworthy" items.
  • Random gold and generic shoes, shirts, and pants would not count. That alone eliminates 90% of the NPC inventory contents. ;)
    • Exception: include unique/enchanted clothing (which includes zero-weight items).
  • Keys probably should be included.
  • Food may also belong (see previous comment about poisoned apples), particularly if it's respawning.
  • For armor/weapons, I can imagine two points of view. Any armor/weapons that aren't just standard iron/fur (i.e., that you can't just find by killing any bandit or marauder) seem noteworthy. But some people might also think even the iron/fur is worth mentioning: if you're going to attack the NPC, you may want to know how good his/her offense and defense are.
• Similarly for the house contents: I think we should limit house contents to only mention the noteworthy items.
  • My main reason for wanting to add house contents is to cover items such as the Non Random Loot that appears in some NPC houses. So anything enchanted is clearly noteworthy. ;)
  • A general note about "quality" of house (upper, middle, lower) should be sufficient to cover most of the contents. For example, a house is upper class if it has silver dishes, expensive clothing, better food, and upper class containers (and is therefore of interest to thieves). The CS names make it particularly easy to identify the house's quality. So just stating that it's upper class (if necessary with a page somewhere describing what's typical for each house quality?) covers it, without having to enumerate the exact number of silver plates, silver bowls, silver knives, etc., etc.
  • Perhaps items that are needed for quests but otherwise fairly generic should be included? Silver glasses, bear pelts, lion pelts, 399 vintage wines, all come to mind. Perhaps even guaranteed yarn (rarer as a guaranteed item than you'd think)? Lettuce (which is very common, see Lettuce)?
  • Also, I already have lists of all house contents. The lists may need some tweaking to be suitable here (i.e., they include all containers, even clutter containers; they only contain ownership for doors; they leave out all the cheap dishes/cutlery which means getting a quality flag right now would be tricky), but any tweaking is probably easier than starting from scratch. (Getting house contents is more complex than getting individual NPC inventories... for which I also have lists, but that's a different story).
• Other should probably include spells and abilities. Very few named NPCs have any spells (and in many cases those spells are already mentioned), but we should remember to check that we haven't overlooked any cases.
• As part of this, I really should try to get my long-promised NPC statistics calculator put together ;) Having a project in place to update the NPC pages will help move that task higher on my priority list, at least.

--Nephele^Talk 17:31, 25 February 2008 (EST)

I think this is a good idea. NPC schedules can be important (especially if the NPC offers a service). As for the personal inventory, I think that putting more generic things (such as armor you can get from level 1-4 bandits/marauders) may be a bit too much, as the person will probably be wearing the armor/weapon anyway. Yet, the part about adding the zero-weight clothes is a good idea, as I know I've spent hours looking for a zero-weight shirt for the first several weeks that I've played the game. I'd support this just for the Unique Dialogue, as each NPC has a different thing to say, and some are noteworthy/plain amusing enough to be put on the page. So that's a yes for me. I would also definately want to participate in this project, so count me in! Vesna 18:57, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Definitely. Sounds great. Count me in too! –Eshe^talk01:10, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Naturally I'm joining as well. ;)

Just a confirmation, before I start adding some stuff. --Timenn < talk > 13:35, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Last time I said I was in on something, I went off and got married, and I'm sorry about my long absence! :P But I'm pretty sure that I can't get married again, and Rpeh said something about an outlet for creative writing with regard to the Schedules aspect. So cross your fingers that nothing terribly distracting happens in real-life, but I'm in on this as well! Kementari 03:04, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Just to clarify, by "creative writing" I obviously mean that the schedules will be based in the facts from the CS, but that there is scope for a little more more creativity in writing them up than just a dry list of times and places. I think this is one place where we could allow a little filling-in of detail to add a bit of color. For instance, Corrick Northwode's schedule should probably have a bit more emotion in it than the current "he visits her gravestone every morning at about 9 am"; after all, this is his wife we're talking about! I wouldn't want to go overboard on this and come up with back-stories taking up thousands of words but I still think there's room for a bit more than just the facts. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 04:30, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

I was aware. Don't worry! I'm not always verbose. ;) 76.102.165.45 14:55, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Leveled Lists

If you're going to be listing inventory (either on their person or in their house), you might be well-served by starting an Oblivion equivalent of the Morrowind:Leveled Lists page, complete with redirects for all the different leveled lists in the game. This way instead of saying "a random magical sword", you can provide a link to that page, which lists exactly which swords can be found at which levels. (Cross-links within the page will handle nested lists, similarly to how I handled it for Morrowind.) This would incidentally also allow you to give more accurate lists of what merchants in the game have for sale. (One problem here is that the Mercantile perk that allows you to purchase all item types from a vendor may mean you'll have to have two lists, or somehow mark items that only those more advanced in Mercantile may buy.) I do agree though that we should probably try to limit it to noteworthy items, though it may be hard to find an objective definition of "noteworthy", since as Nephele said, maybe some people want to know about Fur and Iron armor. Mind you, I think this is much more important for vendors than, say, beggars, or other less noteworthy (and less well-off) NPCs. If there's little or no need to interact with somebody, and they're not carrying anything of particular value to steal, it doesn't seem like it should be necessary to list such minutiae. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 13:56, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Apologies in advance if this response seems overly forceful. It's just that I've seen occasional suggestions about creating an Oblivion page comparable to Morrowind:Leveled Lists, but I strongly disagree with the idea. Therefore I'd like to make that very clear, before such an article is impulsively created and hundreds of pages are edited to use the new article. So here goes....

I think the purpose of the wiki should be to interpret the construction set data and convert that data into a format that will be readily understood by and useful to most of the site's readers. I don't think there's anything to be gained by basically dumping raw construction set data onto the site. Raw data will only be useful to readers who already understand the construction set inside out, and those readers can just go straight to the construction set to answer their questions and figure out every obscure gory detail.

For example, take Alaston's recent questions on enchanted amulets. Would a link to the LL2LootJewelryMagic100 list in a format like Morrowind:Leveled Lists#l_b_amulets have answered his question? My guess is not a chance. Or if (after hours of sifting through the page and piecing things together) it had answered his question, the chances are that he would have actually ended up with the wrong answer, given that correct interpretation of that list (any list!) depends upon understanding how obscure flags like "all levels" work.

I've also spent time working with GuildKnight on Oblivion leveled lists using a listing comparable to the Morrowind page, so I have some first-hand experience of how hard it can be to explain those lists. If one of our most intelligent and motivated editors can only figure out the lists after multiple emails and one-on-one question-and-answer sessions, do you really think that a site reader has any chance of figuring them out? I don't.

So instead of a raw data dump, I think that our objective should be to interpret the lists. And in the case of LL2LootJewelryMagic100, for example, the ultimate interpretation is far simpler than wading through a dozen nested leveled lists would imply: you have a chance of finding any ring or amulet listed on Generic Magic Apparel and Magic Items that is available at your character's level. Do most readers care that the chance of finding a Base Ring of Destruction is 1/4 * 5/6 * 1/17 * 1/21 ? I doubt it. They just want to know that it's possible to find it if their character is level 4 or higher. Most of the work involved in interpreting the hundreds of leveled loot lists has already been done and is summarized on the magic items pages. I've gone through every leveled list combination to work out the level at which items appear. I've tried to find and document all the exceptions to the standard rules. I'd rather be told "the ring normally is found at level 4, but there's a chance it appears at level 1 in boss-level chests" than be told "go look through these dozens of lists and see if you can figure out for yourself if it ever appears at level 1" (especially since doing so requires realizing that level=1 in a LL0 list does not mean the ring appears at level 1 from that list, it just means that the level is actually determined by the LL1 or even LL2 lists that use the LL0 lists).

Could we do a better job of making the connection between "this prelate has a 100% chance of carrying a piece of jewelry" and the information on Generic Magic Apparel? Yes, I'm sure we could. But adding a leveled list data dump is not going to help make that connection. In the best case, such information is going to confuse readers, in the worst case it's going to completely misinform them. --Nephele^Talk 14:06, 28 February 2008 (EST)

I'm all for finding a simpler way to display this data if someone can come up with something. But if something says "Random Enchanted Ring", I'd like to be able to point to a list somewhere of just what rings that might include. Maybe if we just stuck with the LL0 lists which contain the actual items, rather than other lists, it might be easier for people to follow. I'd just like to be able to say something a bit more specific than "So-and-so can sell a variety of magical items". --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 14:20, 28 February 2008 (EST)

I could see having a link from "Random Enchanted Ring" to an entry somewhere that says "Random enchanted ring means any ring listed on the Generic magic pages, level-dependent". But I don't think we should try to create a new article that lists all of those rings. You can't even just stick to LL0 lists: the information is spread across all levels of the nesting. LL2 lists provide the level-dependence and (usually) overall percent chance of appearing, LL1 lists provide most of the items, then LL0 lists provide the fortify attribute enchantments (in the case of magic jewelry).

If anything, I could see creating a new category that lists only the randomly-spawned enchanted rings, perhaps even using the level as the sort key. So the link could be to, for example, Category:Oblivion-Random_Loot-Rings and that category's introduction then provides any necessary explanation (and states that exceptions to the standard level are explained elsewhere). Even so, I'd want to be pretty selective: I don't think we need to spell out every clutter leveled list, every unenchanted item list, etc., etc. --Nephele^Talk 14:49, 28 February 2008 (EST)

I know exactly why Lurlock wants to do this. It's a great idea and would be a huge help to everybody on the site. The trouble is that, as Nephele points out, it's simply not possible. For a long time I wanted to do a set of pages where you could click on a link and be directed to another page with a list of the things that could come up in a list and you could click.... and so on. I think it was a project listed on my user page for a while. The trouble is that there's simply too much information and too many other factors affecting what appears. You'd need hundreds of pages and even then it wouldn't really work.

I then thought about an off-site generator like the Alchemy Calculator. Again, the trouble is that there are other factors involved. You can have an inventory with, say, six things in, each of which may be enchanted, of a certain quality, or even not present at all. The number of possible outcomes it simply too large to enumerate in any sensible fashion.

Take the example Nephele pointed out earlier. For just one of the skill ranges there are 42 possible rings that can appear. 18 of those are three times more likely to appear as standard and six of them are five times as likely. In total, there are 141 different rings (I'm fairly sure!) that just one NPC can drop, with varying probabilities - and that is one of the easier inventories to decode! And now you add in the amulets and necklaces.

Morrowind was far simpler in this regard and even there, I'd say the leveled list page is on the edge of legibility. For Oblivion, brilliant as such a page would be, I think we have to admit defeat. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 15:14, 28 February 2008 (EST)

As Nephele pointed out, it took multiple lessons for her to teach me how to interpret the lists, and even now, I'm not so sure I fully grasp it. She took the time to answer my questions so that we could develop the tables on Vampire Dungeons and other "Something-Dungeons" that show what items may appear in the containers. I don't suppose a simpler version of those tables would work for this purpose, would they? --GuildKnight^Talk2me 18:24, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Order of content

I'm proposing the following order of content for all NPC pages:

• Introduction - Details the gender, race, class and location (in that order) of the NPC in question.
• Backstory - If details are known about a NPC that does not clearly fall into the other categories (for example, rumors about the NPC in question), explain them here.
• Unique Dialogue
• Quest Involvement
• Schedules
• Services
• Personal Inventory
• House Content
• Other

The idea is to merge this all into one fluently written description. If a certain section becomes relevant and large enough, it can get its own section instead. Bugs will be listed in a seperate section in any case. -Timenn < talk > 14:00, 26 February 2008 (EST)

I mostly like the order here; however, I have a couple of suggestions. First of all, House Contents would probably be better explained in some sort of table, since the containers in the house may have different items for everyone. Also, I like the Quest Involvement being listed in a separate section; a bulleted list. I guess I can understand the quests that the character is only involved in being explained in a sentence or two, but the "Quests Given," I think, should definitely be given in a list format. --GuildKnight^Talk2me 18:35, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

I did not intend for text replacing the Quest lists, sorry for not making that clear. It's an addition, the list will send people straight to the quest pages, but the text will describe the role of that particular NPC in quests.

While a table suits better if you want to display the full contents of a house, I think it's better to only name the contents that are noteworthy. Some minor loot and clutter isn't, but stuff that is of interest for thieves is. --Timenn < talk > 11:57, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

I think this order will work for 95% of the NPCs but in some cases it will need to be more flexible. Take, as a trivial example, Claudius Arcadia. I'd say that the shrine in his basement needs a fairly early mention but that the rest of the contents of his house could go in the usual place. As far as tables are concerned, again I think there's a case for "both" in some cases. Umbacano's house has a huge amount of valuable silver and the main text should just say that it's there (something like "Umbacano's house befits his status as one of the richest people in the city. It is full of valuable silverware, books and the finest food") and then maybe there could be a table at the end listing the exact contents. There may even be some occasions where clutter needs a mention: locations that always contain large numbers of calipers would be useful knowledge for people collecting them for Tove the Unrestful, for instance.

In general, I think all these ideas should be no more than guidelines. These are people we're describing and it's perfectly fair to describe them with a bit of flowery language. An overly-formulaic approach isn't going to satisfy anybody but I think the people on the list so far are sufficiently skilled editors to know what's needed. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 12:20, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Reason for the Delay

Sorry this is taking longer than expected to get off the ground; it turns out my recent computer loss took a lot of stuff with it, including the ability to read my backup DVDs so I'm going to have to rewrite from scratch :( –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 04:30, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] NPC Existence

I just realized there's one other piece of information that's missing from most of the NPC pages, but needs to be added: when does the NPC exist in the game? Many NPCs are not enabled until a related quest is started. Some are disabled after the related quest (or forcibly killed during the quest). Also, some have very different behaviour during a related quest than either before or after the quest, and therefore will be found in different locations at different points in the game. Some of that may possibly be revealed in the analysis of the AI packages, but it's not information that necessarily qualifies as "schedule" information. But often it's buried in scripts (especially enable/disable commands), which makes it somewhat more difficult to extract. Nevertheless, I think it's pretty important for the NPC pages to explain whether or not the NPC even exists ;) --Nephele^Talk 20:55, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Example

Oblivion:Adrian Decanius volunteered to be the first example for this new project. Feel free to edit it until we can all agree on the way to go for all NPCs. Why Adrian? Because he is a NPC with a generally boring backstory. He has no unique dialogue, and isn't involved in quests. I believe the idea of this project was to brush up the pages for those types of NPCs, which are generally in the majority in Oblivion.

A few, on this page undocumented, changes: Explicit gender mention in the description was omitted, which seems to become the consenus as discussed here. Also, Adrian's image is now in a 1:1 width×height format (instead of 4:3), which Rpeh and I agreed upon earlier could be a better standard for NPC images. The thumbnail's total size is bigger, and it covers the NPC's height better. --Timenn < talk > 10:16, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

Feedback on the image used and a few tips: I agree that the 1:1 format is better, however pay attention to composition of the screenshot. Adrian here has a lot of empty space over him. Placing his head in the upper third, and without a line cutting through him, would give a better result. Treat NPC portraits like you would do with a human portrait, watch for poles, spires and plants "growing" out of the head. A light downward and not completely frontal angle should generally give the most pleasing results. The main purpose of portrait photography is to capture the essence of the subject, include anything that makes the NPC special, but don't clutter the background. Leave some space around the subject, allowing the eye to scan the picture. Image:OB-npc-Varnado.jpg and Image:MW-npc-Therana.jpg are some good examples. Cheers, --Benould^•T•C 11:27, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

So, I edited Adrian's page according to the proposed guidelines... any suggestions? (Of course, it still needs personal and house inventories, and also unique dialog and rumors - if there is any; Those are things I can't generate) --GuildKnight^Talk2me 18:45, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

You mean like in this example? ;) --Timenn < talk > 19:04, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Well, now I feel stupid... I didn't even notice the link to your sandbox! I just thought you were offering him... so, should I revert the actual page? --GuildKnight^Talk2me 19:20, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

No, your edit was an improvement so I don't think it is necessary to revert it because a different version exists in a Sandbox. Your edit to the example was good, though I feel a bit uncomfortable about mixing the general introduction and the NPC schedule. I'd rather have them in seperate paragraphs. --Timenn < talk > 11:50, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] I'm in

I just wanted to say that you can count me in to this project. - Game Lord^{Talk|Contribs} 15:15, 22 September 2008 (EDT)