UESPWiki talk:Oblivion NPC Redesign Project

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[edit] Feedback

First, I'm in favour of the overall idea :) (I've been involved in some of the preliminary offline discussions). Just some minor, random thoughts to add:

  • With the schedule, times when NPCs eat can be important for some players, in particular people who like to use Poisoned Apples. It may be useful in the eating part of the schedule to also include a note about whether the NPC has their own source of food (in which case they are also effectively immune to poisoned apples).
  • For the inventory contents, I'd vote for only including "noteworthy" items.
    • Random gold and generic shoes, shirts, and pants would not count. That alone eliminates 90% of the NPC inventory contents. ;)
      • Exception: include unique/enchanted clothing (which includes zero-weight items).
    • Keys probably should be included.
    • Food may also belong (see previous comment about poisoned apples), particularly if it's respawning.
    • For armor/weapons, I can imagine two points of view. Any armor/weapons that aren't just standard iron/fur (i.e., that you can't just find by killing any bandit or marauder) seem noteworthy. But some people might also think even the iron/fur is worth mentioning: if you're going to attack the NPC, you may want to know how good his/her offense and defense are.
  • Similarly for the house contents: I think we should limit house contents to only mention the noteworthy items.
    • My main reason for wanting to add house contents is to cover items such as the Non Random Loot that appears in some NPC houses. So anything enchanted is clearly noteworthy. ;)
    • A general note about "quality" of house (upper, middle, lower) should be sufficient to cover most of the contents. For example, a house is upper class if it has silver dishes, expensive clothing, better food, and upper class containers (and is therefore of interest to thieves). The CS names make it particularly easy to identify the house's quality. So just stating that it's upper class (if necessary with a page somewhere describing what's typical for each house quality?) covers it, without having to enumerate the exact number of silver plates, silver bowls, silver knives, etc., etc.
    • Perhaps items that are needed for quests but otherwise fairly generic should be included? Silver glasses, bear pelts, lion pelts, 399 vintage wines, all come to mind. Perhaps even guaranteed yarn (rarer as a guaranteed item than you'd think)? Lettuce (which is very common, see Lettuce)?
    • Also, I already have lists of all house contents. The lists may need some tweaking to be suitable here (i.e., they include all containers, even clutter containers; they only contain ownership for doors; they leave out all the cheap dishes/cutlery which means getting a quality flag right now would be tricky), but any tweaking is probably easier than starting from scratch. (Getting house contents is more complex than getting individual NPC inventories... for which I also have lists, but that's a different story).
  • Other should probably include spells and abilities. Very few named NPCs have any spells (and in many cases those spells are already mentioned), but we should remember to check that we haven't overlooked any cases.
  • As part of this, I really should try to get my long-promised NPC statistics calculator put together ;) Having a project in place to update the NPC pages will help move that task higher on my priority list, at least.

--NepheleTalk 17:31, 25 February 2008 (EST)

I think this is a good idea. NPC schedules can be important (especially if the NPC offers a service). As for the personal inventory, I think that putting more generic things (such as armor you can get from level 1-4 bandits/marauders) may be a bit too much, as the person will probably be wearing the armor/weapon anyway. Yet, the part about adding the zero-weight clothes is a good idea, as I know I've spent hours looking for a zero-weight shirt for the first several weeks that I've played the game. I'd support this just for the Unique Dialogue, as each NPC has a different thing to say, and some are noteworthy/plain amusing enough to be put on the page. So that's a yes for me. I would also definately want to participate in this project, so count me in! Vesna 18:57, 25 February 2008 (EST)
Definitely. Sounds great. Count me in too! –Eshetalk01:10, 26 February 2008 (EST)
Naturally I'm joining as well. ;)
Just a confirmation, before I start adding some stuff. --Timenn < talk > 13:35, 26 February 2008 (EST)
Last time I said I was in on something, I went off and got married, and I'm sorry about my long absence! :P But I'm pretty sure that I can't get married again, and Rpeh said something about an outlet for creative writing with regard to the Schedules aspect. So cross your fingers that nothing terribly distracting happens in real-life, but I'm in on this as well! Kementari 03:04, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
Just to clarify, by "creative writing" I obviously mean that the schedules will be based in the facts from the CS, but that there is scope for a little more more creativity in writing them up than just a dry list of times and places. I think this is one place where we could allow a little filling-in of detail to add a bit of color. For instance, Corrick Northwode's schedule should probably have a bit more emotion in it than the current "he visits her gravestone every morning at about 9 am"; after all, this is his wife we're talking about! I wouldn't want to go overboard on this and come up with back-stories taking up thousands of words but I still think there's room for a bit more than just the facts. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 04:30, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
I was aware. Don't worry! I'm not always verbose. ;) 76.102.165.45 14:55, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Leveled Lists

If you're going to be listing inventory (either on their person or in their house), you might be well-served by starting an Oblivion equivalent of the Morrowind:Leveled Lists page, complete with redirects for all the different leveled lists in the game. This way instead of saying "a random magical sword", you can provide a link to that page, which lists exactly which swords can be found at which levels. (Cross-links within the page will handle nested lists, similarly to how I handled it for Morrowind.) This would incidentally also allow you to give more accurate lists of what merchants in the game have for sale. (One problem here is that the Mercantile perk that allows you to purchase all item types from a vendor may mean you'll have to have two lists, or somehow mark items that only those more advanced in Mercantile may buy.) I do agree though that we should probably try to limit it to noteworthy items, though it may be hard to find an objective definition of "noteworthy", since as Nephele said, maybe some people want to know about Fur and Iron armor. Mind you, I think this is much more important for vendors than, say, beggars, or other less noteworthy (and less well-off) NPCs. If there's little or no need to interact with somebody, and they're not carrying anything of particular value to steal, it doesn't seem like it should be necessary to list such minutiae. --TheRealLurlock Talk 13:56, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Apologies in advance if this response seems overly forceful. It's just that I've seen occasional suggestions about creating an Oblivion page comparable to Morrowind:Leveled Lists, but I strongly disagree with the idea. Therefore I'd like to make that very clear, before such an article is impulsively created and hundreds of pages are edited to use the new article. So here goes....
I think the purpose of the wiki should be to interpret the construction set data and convert that data into a format that will be readily understood by and useful to most of the site's readers. I don't think there's anything to be gained by basically dumping raw construction set data onto the site. Raw data will only be useful to readers who already understand the construction set inside out, and those readers can just go straight to the construction set to answer their questions and figure out every obscure gory detail.
For example, take Alaston's recent questions on enchanted amulets. Would a link to the LL2LootJewelryMagic100 list in a format like Morrowind:Leveled Lists#l_b_amulets have answered his question? My guess is not a chance. Or if (after hours of sifting through the page and piecing things together) it had answered his question, the chances are that he would have actually ended up with the wrong answer, given that correct interpretation of that list (any list!) depends upon understanding how obscure flags like "all levels" work.
I've also spent time working with GuildKnight on Oblivion leveled lists using a listing comparable to the Morrowind page, so I have some first-hand experience of how hard it can be to explain those lists. If one of our most intelligent and motivated editors can only figure out the lists after multiple emails and one-on-one question-and-answer sessions, do you really think that a site reader has any chance of figuring them out? I don't.
So instead of a raw data dump, I think that our objective should be to interpret the lists. And in the case of LL2LootJewelryMagic100, for example, the ultimate interpretation is far simpler than wading through a dozen nested leveled lists would imply: you have a chance of finding any ring or amulet listed on Generic Magic Apparel and Magic Items that is available at your character's level. Do most readers care that the chance of finding a Base Ring of Destruction is 1/4 * 5/6 * 1/17 * 1/21 ? I doubt it. They just want to know that it's possible to find it if their character is level 4 or higher. Most of the work involved in interpreting the hundreds of leveled loot lists has already been done and is summarized on the magic items pages. I've gone through every leveled list combination to work out the level at which items appear. I've tried to find and document all the exceptions to the standard rules. I'd rather be told "the ring normally is found at level 4, but there's a chance it appears at level 1 in boss-level chests" than be told "go look through these dozens of lists and see if you can figure out for yourself if it ever appears at level 1" (especially since doing so requires realizing that level=1 in a LL0 list does not mean the ring appears at level 1 from that list, it just means that the level is actually determined by the LL1 or even LL2 lists that use the LL0 lists).
Could we do a better job of making the connection between "this prelate has a 100% chance of carrying a piece of jewelry" and the information on Generic Magic Apparel? Yes, I'm sure we could. But adding a leveled list data dump is not going to help make that connection. In the best case, such information is going to confuse readers, in the worst case it's going to completely misinform them. --NepheleTalk 14:06, 28 February 2008 (EST)
I'm all for finding a simpler way to display this data if someone can come up with something. But if something says "Random Enchanted Ring", I'd like to be able to point to a list somewhere of just what rings that might include. Maybe if we just stuck with the LL0 lists which contain the actual items, rather than other lists, it might be easier for people to follow. I'd just like to be able to say something a bit more specific than "So-and-so can sell a variety of magical items". --TheRealLurlock Talk 14:20, 28 February 2008 (EST)
I could see having a link from "Random Enchanted Ring" to an entry somewhere that says "Random enchanted ring means any ring listed on the Generic magic pages, level-dependent". But I don't think we should try to create a new article that lists all of those rings. You can't even just stick to LL0 lists: the information is spread across all levels of the nesting. LL2 lists provide the level-dependence and (usually) overall percent chance of appearing, LL1 lists provide most of the items, then LL0 lists provide the fortify attribute enchantments (in the case of magic jewelry).
If anything, I could see creating a new category that lists only the randomly-spawned enchanted rings, perhaps even using the level as the sort key. So the link could be to, for example, Category:Oblivion-Random_Loot-Rings and that category's introduction then provides any necessary explanation (and states that exceptions to the standard level are explained elsewhere). Even so, I'd want to be pretty selective: I don't think we need to spell out every clutter leveled list, every unenchanted item list, etc., etc. --NepheleTalk 14:49, 28 February 2008 (EST)
I know exactly why Lurlock wants to do this. It's a great idea and would be a huge help to everybody on the site. The trouble is that, as Nephele points out, it's simply not possible. For a long time I wanted to do a set of pages where you could click on a link and be directed to another page with a list of the things that could come up in a list and you could click.... and so on. I think it was a project listed on my user page for a while. The trouble is that there's simply too much information and too many other factors affecting what appears. You'd need hundreds of pages and even then it wouldn't really work.
I then thought about an off-site generator like the Alchemy Calculator. Again, the trouble is that there are other factors involved. You can have an inventory with, say, six things in, each of which may be enchanted, of a certain quality, or even not present at all. The number of possible outcomes it simply too large to enumerate in any sensible fashion.
Take the example Nephele pointed out earlier. For just one of the skill ranges there are 42 possible rings that can appear. 18 of those are three times more likely to appear as standard and six of them are five times as likely. In total, there are 141 different rings (I'm fairly sure!) that just one NPC can drop, with varying probabilities - and that is one of the easier inventories to decode! And now you add in the amulets and necklaces.
Morrowind was far simpler in this regard and even there, I'd say the leveled list page is on the edge of legibility. For Oblivion, brilliant as such a page would be, I think we have to admit defeat. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 15:14, 28 February 2008 (EST)

As Nephele pointed out, it took multiple lessons for her to teach me how to interpret the lists, and even now, I'm not so sure I fully grasp it. She took the time to answer my questions so that we could develop the tables on Vampire Dungeons and other "Something-Dungeons" that show what items may appear in the containers. I don't suppose a simpler version of those tables would work for this purpose, would they? --GuildKnightTalk2me 18:24, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Order of content

I'm proposing the following order of content for all NPC pages:

The idea is to merge this all into one fluently written description. If a certain section becomes relevant and large enough, it can get its own section instead. Bugs will be listed in a seperate section in any case. -Timenn < talk > 14:00, 26 February 2008 (EST)

I mostly like the order here; however, I have a couple of suggestions. First of all, House Contents would probably be better explained in some sort of table, since the containers in the house may have different items for everyone. Also, I like the Quest Involvement being listed in a separate section; a bulleted list. I guess I can understand the quests that the character is only involved in being explained in a sentence or two, but the "Quests Given," I think, should definitely be given in a list format. --GuildKnightTalk2me 18:35, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
I did not intend for text replacing the Quest lists, sorry for not making that clear. It's an addition, the list will send people straight to the quest pages, but the text will describe the role of that particular NPC in quests.
While a table suits better if you want to display the full contents of a house, I think it's better to only name the contents that are noteworthy. Some minor loot and clutter isn't, but stuff that is of interest for thieves is. --Timenn < talk > 11:57, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
I think this order will work for 95% of the NPCs but in some cases it will need to be more flexible. Take, as a trivial example, Claudius Arcadia. I'd say that the shrine in his basement needs a fairly early mention but that the rest of the contents of his house could go in the usual place. As far as tables are concerned, again I think there's a case for "both" in some cases. Umbacano's house has a huge amount of valuable silver and the main text should just say that it's there (something like "Umbacano's house befits his status as one of the richest people in the city. It is full of valuable silverware, books and the finest food") and then maybe there could be a table at the end listing the exact contents. There may even be some occasions where clutter needs a mention: locations that always contain large numbers of calipers would be useful knowledge for people collecting them for Tove the Unrestful, for instance.
In general, I think all these ideas should be no more than guidelines. These are people we're describing and it's perfectly fair to describe them with a bit of flowery language. An overly-formulaic approach isn't going to satisfy anybody but I think the people on the list so far are sufficiently skilled editors to know what's needed. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 12:20, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Reason for the Delay

Sorry this is taking longer than expected to get off the ground; it turns out my recent computer loss took a lot of stuff with it, including the ability to read my backup DVDs so I'm going to have to rewrite from scratch :( –Rpeh•T•C•E• 04:30, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] NPC Existence

I just realized there's one other piece of information that's missing from most of the NPC pages, but needs to be added: when does the NPC exist in the game? Many NPCs are not enabled until a related quest is started. Some are disabled after the related quest (or forcibly killed during the quest). Also, some have very different behaviour during a related quest than either before or after the quest, and therefore will be found in different locations at different points in the game. Some of that may possibly be revealed in the analysis of the AI packages, but it's not information that necessarily qualifies as "schedule" information. But often it's buried in scripts (especially enable/disable commands), which makes it somewhat more difficult to extract. Nevertheless, I think it's pretty important for the NPC pages to explain whether or not the NPC even exists ;) --NepheleTalk 20:55, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Example

Oblivion:Adrian Decanius volunteered to be the first example for this new project. Feel free to edit it until we can all agree on the way to go for all NPCs. Why Adrian? Because he is a NPC with a generally boring backstory. He has no unique dialogue, and isn't involved in quests. I believe the idea of this project was to brush up the pages for those types of NPCs, which are generally in the majority in Oblivion.

A few, on this page undocumented, changes: Explicit gender mention in the description was omitted, which seems to become the consenus as discussed here. Also, Adrian's image is now in a 1:1 width×height format (instead of 4:3), which Rpeh and I agreed upon earlier could be a better standard for NPC images. The thumbnail's total size is bigger, and it covers the NPC's height better. --Timenn < talk > 10:16, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

Feedback on the image used and a few tips: I agree that the 1:1 format is better, however pay attention to composition of the screenshot. [[:Image:Adrian_Decanius.jpg|Adrian]] here has a lot of empty space over him. Placing his head in the upper third, and without a line cutting through him, would give a better result. Treat NPC portraits like you would do with a human portrait, watch for poles, spires and plants "growing" out of the head. A light downward and not completely frontal angle should generally give the most pleasing results. The main purpose of portrait photography is to capture the essence of the subject, include anything that makes the NPC special, but don't clutter the background. Leave some space around the subject, allowing the eye to scan the picture. Image:OB-npc-Varnado.jpg and Image:MW-npc-Therana.jpg are some good examples. Cheers, --Benould•T•C 11:27, 21 May 2008 (EDT)
So, I edited Adrian's page according to the proposed guidelines... any suggestions? (Of course, it still needs personal and house inventories, and also unique dialog and rumors - if there is any; Those are things I can't generate) --GuildKnightTalk2me 18:45, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
You mean like in this example? ;) --Timenn < talk > 19:04, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
Well, now I feel stupid... I didn't even notice the link to your sandbox! I just thought you were offering him... so, should I revert the actual page? --GuildKnightTalk2me 19:20, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
No, your edit was an improvement so I don't think it is necessary to revert it because a different version exists in a Sandbox. Your edit to the example was good, though I feel a bit uncomfortable about mixing the general introduction and the NPC schedule. I'd rather have them in seperate paragraphs. --Timenn < talk > 11:50, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] I'm in

I just wanted to say that you can count me in to this project. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 15:15, 22 September 2008 (EDT)

I don't normally do "Me too" posts, but count me in too. I hope others will be gentle when I mess up! Dr Jones 16:59, 9 January 2009 (EST)
I guess I'm in too, if only for checking (no PC version of Oblivion, epic frown) --Farglenargle 22:38, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Let's Get Going

Okay, I think we have enough people interested to get this thing moving and that there's consensus on how it should work. The example above shows the sort of thing we're looking for and what should be included. If there are no objections, I'm going to add this template to all the NPC pages (or rather, RoBoT will), and then the writing can start. I'll write up some guidelines for using the template and put them on the project page along with a finalized set of instructions for content. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 13:23, 5 January 2009 (EST)

[edit] Idea on how to put the sections into the articles

After adding the unique dialogue to Ajum-Kajin it has become obvious to me that for NPCs involved in a lot of quests, each of these extra sections is going to become huge.

So before we start adding massive amounts of text to the articles, I think we should decide on how we're going to format the whole thing. My idea is that we use show/hides for each section. Example here. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 15:09, 10 January 2009 (EST)

With unique dialogue I think a little discretion will be needed: not everything is worth including. Only those lines that are interesting, funny or instructive should go on. As for those sections, if you look at Timenn's example you'll see how the layout is planned - paragraphs rather than sections. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 04:01, 11 January 2009 (EST)

[edit] One more for the line up

Hey, just wanted to say: count me in as well. NPCs are a core part of Oblivion (as far as I'm concerned) and this project is really needed. Just two questions pop into my mind: first, the project page says that the schedules and other information can be found in the CS. Since I'm on PC and I happen have the CS, I had a quick look but didn't find anything. So.. where exactly is that precious information?

Secondly, I just finished my lastest project, concerning stores and inns. A good part of info on the publicans and vendors is now on the store's or inn's page as well as info on the buildings. Should this information be included on the NPCs' pages or not? --SerCenKing 07:20, 23 January 2009 (EST)

Same here. I'm hopping on the bandwagon too. This project has really caught my eye. I'll try to help as much as I can. --Playjex 23:28, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Looks interesting. Alright, I'll join too. -Rycr 03:54, 6 February 2009 (EST)

[edit] Linkable Content

What will be the standard for linking things like gender, race, class, etc.? Should the all be linkified, none, or something in between? --Robin Hood (Talk • E-mail • Contribs) 02:11, 4 March 2009 (EST)

Well gender shouldn't be mentioned in the text - one of the goals was to get away from doing so. As somebody pointed out, you'd never say that "Abraham Lincoln was a male president of the...". Race and class are fair enough in a world with many examples of both, and the first examples should be linked. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 02:43, 4 March 2009 (EST)
Perfect, thanks Rpeh. --Robin Hood (Talk • E-mail • Contribs) 16:51, 4 March 2009 (EST)

[edit] The layout of the pages

So, were rolling. And it's fun. But, as I went back in time to check out the unique dialogue on some of the "older" NPCs written for this project, I noticed a lack of consistensy in the pages layout. IMO, the pages should all list the things in the same order. A prime exampel is the new page for Carandial. The intro, the schedule - the rare "break" in the schedule seperated from the normal one, followed by inventory, house description, unique dialogue and rumors at the very end. (yes, I know - it's not exactly like that right now, 'cause SerC put the dialogue too high, while I wrote this) - but I thought that was the correct order for the descriptions. And I think it would be cool, if we did all of them in the same way. For example, the page for S'rathad starts out with the Skingrad schedule, which I think might be confusing for gamers seeking information. That schedule should be split in two with the Skingrad description below the "everyday" description. And let's not forget to put a tiny space between the sections...

And for the layout itself; I noticed, that theres a different lay-out on Salmo (the baker) - here, the rumors are done in a completely different manner, but way better. Its easy on the eyes and it doesnt scare anybody off. I would suggest doing a similar thing with unique dialogue (like I tried on Carandial) - otherwise, the pages will look like explosions of text, which is not very attractive. Just look at Ambroise Canne - now, theres a bit of unique dialogue that could use some kind of layout...! Lets at least consider it?

Last, and a bit unrelated: How is one supposed to check "Rumors" in-game? I have heard more rumors than most the last couple of weeks - still, I wouldn't have a clue how to really check them in the game. Maybe this should remain unchecked and rely solely on the CS?

Keep up the good work - and remember to REPHRASE my contributions. You guys know ten times more about the game than I do - and have ten times the english skills - so I actually doesn't bother too much when I write them, because I expect you guys to rephrase them anyway. Krusty 13:02, 12 March 2009 (EDT)

I think that the point you've raisen is a good one. Sorry for my formatting of the dialogue on Carandial's page: it was just to keep the consistency with pages such as Ambroise Canne or Tumindil that you have pointed out. Personally, I don't have any problems changing the rumors and dialogue from one layout or another since I quite like both. However, I think that we should firmly decide on how to do it and before that, no more adding dialogue. If in the end we decide to change the layout, I'll have no problems reverting my Carandial edit and helping to move the junk to the new layout. As per the rephrasing, not a problem: it's good practice for me to become Patroller. XD --SerCenKing 14:24, 12 March 2009 (EDT)
I've never wanted the pages to be overly formulaic so consistency doesn't bother me. Similarly I wanted the pages to have freedom in language rather than the stilted set of stock phrases that have mainly been appearing. These are people, not robots, and I'd rather we treated them like that. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 14:27, 12 March 2009 (EDT)
Freedom in language is a-okay in my book. It's the layout itself I'm a bit worried about. I know how it's like to be new to the ES universe, and some of the complicated schedules are rather over-complicated - I mean, even I get confused over some of the schedules, and I know them by heart! Still think, it would be a good idea to make the rare "once-a-month"-trip the last thing in the schedule (instead of the first), at least from now on? Krusty 14:42, 12 March 2009 (EDT)
I wouldn't define that as a rule. Often the montly trip is the most interesting, or defining, bit of a particular NPC. Generally you want the more important stuff higher in the article. --Timenn < talk > 10:56, 13 March 2009 (EDT)
Yay Timenn! Good to see you again - I was getting worried! In this specific case I put the one-off trip first because it's easier to say "Except when doing the thing I just told you about..." for the next section. Carandial's schedule is a bit more detailed so I put it second.
There's something else to bear in mind here. Adding a scheduleChecked tag to the template isn't the end of the story. Eventually, NPCs will get to the point where they have the "COMPLETE" category, and that's a good place to do a final check before removing the template and calling that NPC done. Even then, if somebody comes across the page and finds it confusing then can always rewrite it or ask for clarification on the talk page.
The difficult bit of the project is getting the details onto the site, and I'd prefer we concentrate on that before worrying about stylistic perfection. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 11:14, 13 March 2009 (EDT)
As a matter of fact, I think youre right - our task right now is to get all the (right) information in there, so lets focus on that. Btw, I asked another question above (about how to check "Rumors") - any suggestions on that problem? Krusty 11:18, 13 March 2009 (EDT)
I don't think there's any way of doing those. They're random, so you'd have to hang about for a long time to overhear them. It's going to be a case of another CS user confirming that the rumors do indeed belong to the specified NPC, and that none have been missed. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 11:40, 13 March 2009 (EDT)

[edit] When signing the tag

Allright, I think at this point that it is nessecary, that we agree to sign the tag with either (in-game) or (CS). Otherwise, we can end up in a terrible mess later on, as there's no way of knowing who wrote what - and by what reference. Please sign here, if you agree. Krusty 15:45, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

I use a mixture of CS and in-game when writing schedules so that really doesn't work. It's also unnecessary since there will be at least two other checks after somebody has written something so whether it's in-game or in-CS, the more obvious mistakes should be spotted. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 01:57, 17 March 2009 (EDT)
I see your point. But to avoid that a schedule is written from the CS and then checked by another person via the CS (or the other way round), I think I'll keep signing my contributions with the small In-game-note. And I hope, that other "in-gamers" will consider the same. Krusty 02:55, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Related Quests paragraph

Yeah yeah, it's me once again. I have repeatedly had my pages edited, and thats all good. My grammar sucks, and my vocabulary is a cry for help. But I REALLY think, that the paragraphs at the bottom of the page should be organised in the following order: 1: Related Quests 2: Notes 3: Bugs. IMHO, the "Related Quest"-paragraph is the most important part of the NPC page, and it really should be on top every time - some of the descriptions are getting quite big as we progress, so the least we can do is to put the "Quest"-thing in plain sight, where it belongs, and where the gamers/users can actually see it without having to scroll down. Krusty 10:28, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

I'm ok with that, I was just keeping consistency with Places pages, which have Notes and then Quests... But of course these are NPCs... Any specific way we want to do them? --SerCenKing 10:33, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
Well, I suggest the order, I posted above - a lot of NPC pages have that order already, and I think it works. Btw, SerC - in case, you didn't notice, here's a nice little observation for you! Krusty 11:24, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
Done! --SerCenKing 11:44, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
That order sounds fine to me. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 04:17, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
Ok with me as well, I'll change the ones I've done so far. --SerCenKing 10:35, 22 March 2009 (EDT)

(outdent) I think the Spells and Purchased Spell Notes sections should go at the bottom on pages where they exist. These sections are usually so long they push things like notes and bugs far too far down. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 13:16, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

Couldn't agree more. And then add a link to the spell list in the NPC's intro (when the world "spell" is used), like we did on Uravasa Othrelas. I'll do that in the future! Krusty 13:28, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Update the Template?

I just did some work on Belisarius and yesterday did work on Lucien Lachance. It says when you add something to the page as per the NPC Redesign guidelines that you need to update the template. How does one do that, exactly? I mean I'm not desperately seeking credit for my work, but it'd be nice to know how to do that.

(The only day the stars will control my fate is when the sun explodes. 16:21, 30 March 2009 (EDT))

The full details of how to use the tag are on the template page itself: see this. Hope it was as helpful as it was to me! --SerCenKing 02:36, 31 March 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Do we REALLY need those "sic" tags?

So, they sometimes make a mistake at Bethesda and spell something wrong in the game - do we really need to point it out like that? Not that I'm worried about Bethesda's feelings, but the sic-tag is really ugly and destroys the layout of an otherwise perfect page. My apologies to the person who programmed it, but it shouldn't ruin the line spacing. THIS is a perfect example. That page was a beautiful piece of work until that sic-tag was added. Ambroise Canne is a nightmare. There's nothing wrong with pointing out spelling mistakes - maybe someone out there is interested, but to ruin the look of the whole page? I think it's a shame, and I think we should discuss it. Krusty 18:46, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

Yes, unfortunately we do need them. Experience has shown that if you just put the "correct" spelling, someone will change it to the in-game spelling, and them somebody will change it back. We get enough people changing the spelling even with the sic tags in place. If you can come up with a design for the sic tag that doesn't mess with the line spacing, great. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 00:23, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
I've never been happy with the way they look now, but sadly it seems we need them. Though I still have my suspicions that some people deliberately alter spellings when they see a sic tag, I think there are enough people that simply can't recognise a sic tag. I'm with Rpeh here, if you can think of a better way, you're welcome.
I do have an evil thought, how about adding protect tags to such quotes? ;) --Timenn < talk > 09:00, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

[edit] NPCs Without Schedule, House Contents, etc.

I have recently come across the page of Mankar Camoran who does not have a schedule, house content, or rumors. Why so? For he is not a NPC in which travels and you can easily interact with. I have recently readNephele's post about NPCs who come in at specific parts of the game, but what about house contents and such? Mankar does not own a house, or have a schedule, nor can you speak to him and ask about rumors. What is the correct way to do NPCs' pages such as Mankar Camoran's? Thanks. --Playjex 22:35, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

Most of the NPCs without schedules are special in some other way. For instance, Eletta's and Zahrasha's pages can be expanded with background information and perhaps information about their lives that can be (reasonably) deduced from their possessions. In Mankar Camoran's case, there may be no schedule but there's more than enough unique dialogue and possessions to make a good page. If there's no schedule, it doesn't get mentioned. Having said that, just about all NPCs have some schedule: see Adosi Serethi's page for an example. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 02:51, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Travelling NPCs

I think it's time to discuss how we deal with travelling NPCs and the way their schedules can be affected in certain ways. When a character like Oghash gra-Magul takes her trip to the Imperial City, it takes her a certain amount of time - if you follow her there, that is. On the other hand, if you wait for her at her destination, her travel time is nearly halved (as seen on her talk page). How should we deal with this? I tried to deal with it in one way on the Ulen Athram page, and included a (probably untrue) explanation in the notes section. Furthermore, if we return to Oghash, she have yet another trip on Fridas, but this time she doesn't have a "fix-point" and therefore will take exactly the time the trip takes. It was the same with Jearl and Saveri Faram. Once again, I tried to explain it in the notes, but we should probably agree on some kind of system or maybe a specific way to write these things. Any suggestions? Krusty 10:12, 26 April 2009 (EDT)

I've tried to come up with a good answer, but can't. This doesn't just affect NPCs like Oghash, Ulen and other NPCs with long journeys; to some extent it affects them all. Remember when I reverted your first edit? That was partially down to this effect. Fast travel and waiting are two effects that really screw things up.
The best idea I've had is to have a standard template, something like the OB Purchased Spell Notes and Leveled Spell Notes ones. Perhaps it would work better as a link to something like a new Oblivion:NPC_Schedule page or a Schedule section of Oblivion:NPCs?
My feeling for the described schedule is to show what would happen if you never waited or fast-traveled. If there's a better idea, I'm more than prepared to hear it. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 17:33, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Spells

Moved from Oblivion talk:Arterion

It's not too late to go through and add "spells" and "spellsChecked" params to the template. Worth doing? –Rpeh•T•C•E• 04:09, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
I think it's a good idea. It's useful information and there's loads of NPCs that uses some kind of magic when you fight them. Only potential problem could be, that it's hard to identify exactly what kind of magic they use in-game (see this), making it pretty difficult to check.On the other hand, as soon as the pages hits the "needs preview"-page, it's going to be double-checked with the CS once again, so I think it's worth the extra effort. Krusty 04:30, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
Done. It'll take a while for it to be reflected onto every NPC's page though. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 04:50, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
Nice work. We better get that Adanrel page done in a hurry, though! I can see her tag is already updated. And it should be mentioned and explained here as well. Krusty 05:28, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
I'm also in favour for this, and I've been doing it for all of my Mages Guild NPCs. Only problem is that most have a set of leveled spells for their class, so writing all of the possible spells is just not going to be useful. I'm going to update the tags for the ones I've done so far. --SerCenKing Talk 05:41, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
More thoughts; As those Mages Guild members will be impossible to check in-game, I suggest that the in-gamer tries to engage in combat with each and every one of them, just to see, if there's a spell he/she uses more than others, and make the nessecary corrections, or a note on the talk page. In all cases, it should be double-checked in the CS.Krusty 06:06, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
There's not much point in that to be honest. The leveled lists are random, so if one spell gets used more than another it's just chance that is unlikely to be replicated elsewhere.
I also disagree that we can't list the spells that may be used. The phrase that has been used on most pages is too vague to be of very much help at all. I'd suggest a page called Oblivion:Leveled_Spell_Lists to expand the leveled lists for spells, then the phrase can be linked to provide at least some information.
I know that expanding leveled lists has been dismissed before, but I think it should be possible with spells as the number of lists is smaller than with items, and we already do it (briefly) on Oblivion:Bandit#Bandit Hedge Wizard Spells. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 02:43, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
I like the idea as well, I have been doing it in some pages (see here and here) and I think it would be worth it. If we do create a page would we link the spells by class? e.g. a set of leveled 'Alchemist/Mage' spells, which would then be linked on the page? --SerCenKing Talk 11:20, 6 May 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Houses Checked List

Hi i'm working on checking the various NPC's houses at the moment and i'm finding alot of NPC's that don't own houses. Would it be ok for me to count these as checked so they don't clutter the list of unchecked houses? Processed 07:49, 9 May 2009 (EDT)

Hi there. If the NPCs doesn't own houses, we typically just name the author as "N/A (doesn't own one). If the NPC lives in another persons house, we list it as "N/A (lives in [name]s house)" Examples: Here and Here. Btw, I seem to remember you're doing the checking in-game. Remember that if a house content was written in-game, the info can only be checked by a CS writer to make sure, there's not anything missing. And may I suggest a trip to Gogans house? His house content is still missing and it would be great to include it. Krusty 08:11, 9 May 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Removing the Tag

I'm going to suggest that, for now, no cleanup-obnpcrp tags are removed - even when the page is widely-regarded as "finished". The reason is that we may yet add more parameters and so need to keep track of what has already been done. The obvious example is the "spells" params that got added recently - after Adanrel's page had been nominated as FA.

I understand the desire to "finish" a page, but since there are still hundreds to do, there's no need to rush any now. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 14:58, 15 May 2009 (EDT)

Umm, that's a good point. Ok then, but it would have been nice to finish at least one.... ;) --SerCenKing Talk 03:46, 16 May 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Markers

Okay, so when we're writing the dialogue on the NPC pages, how do we put the markers? Is it like "this" - or like "this" ? Recently, quite a few edits have been made to change back and forth on the markers being italic or not, and I thought it would be practical to reach an agreement here. My vote goes to "this". Krusty 16:51, 26 May 2009 (EDT)

I agree with Krusty. --SerCenKing Talk 08:29, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
I actually disagree. I find "this" better readable. But I'm willing to conform, should the need arise. Wolok gro-Barok 09:04, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
I don't see a need for strict policy on that. There is no visual difference (there is no italic visual for a marker) and most likely half of the articles use one way and the other half the other. The only thing worth achieving is that it remains consistent per individual article. A new editor might get confused if it used with both method on a single article. --Timenn < talk > 09:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
Sorry, one of those was mine. I included the quotes within the italicizing tags. My view was that it kept the quote together, which allows for easier editing. --Mr. Oblivion(T-C) 09:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
I all honesty, I really don't care how it's done. Its just that I used one method, and then Wolok corrected it - then I used the other method and then SerC corrected it. I think Timenn have a point; Lets just do them as we see fit, as long as we use the same method all over the page - so no more Markers corrections, as they fill up the Edit History on the pages, a feature I use more and more as we go along. Krusty 13:37, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
Again, I agree with Krusty; and Timmenn. --SerCenKing Talk 15:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Racial Spells

Are NPCs able to use their racial spells? I came across a Nord marauder once who used a frost spell on me! It scared me at first. I thought Nords weren't capable of doing that. After a while I figured it must be their lesser Nord Power, a racial spell. If they use it, it stands to reason non-hostile NPCs use them too. Or am I just wrong and they don't even have them? Not sure to mention it here, but if it's true it might need a mention on the ONPCRP. Wolok gro-Barok 15:17, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep. NPCs have all the racial abilities a player would acquire if choosing that specific race. So they have the natural resistances etc. and the lesser and greater powers. What practically all NPCs miss, however, is a birthsign (Mankar Camoran is one exception). --Timenn < talk > 17:48, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Inventory Checking

Guess who needs a project? Me! I'd like to start double-checking some of these pages, starting with inventories. Anything I should know before I dive in? –Eshetalk 17:36, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

Very glad to hear, that you want to help out (well, after looking at your user page, I kindda knew you would), as we can definately use all the help we can get. A useful thing to know (and this is not listed anywhere) is that, among the most "active" contributors to the project (as of now), me and Wolok gro-Barok writes from the game, and our contributions should be checked using the CS. Rpeh and SerCenKing writes from the CS and should be checked in-game (even though Rpeh mixes in some in-game facts when he writes). Some other project members chime in from time to time, such as GuildKnight, who specializes in house contents (using the CS) and Azeg-Rael who writes from the game. (Apologies to anyone I missed). So; Are you in-game - or do you have the CS? Krusty 17:53, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
Heh, I've been a bit of a project addict since my first day here ;). I'll definitely be using the Construction Set. I can verify from in-game, but I feel much more comfortable working with the actual data. I did notice on a few of the tags that you've been marking whether the information comes from in-game or the CS, so I'll pay attention to that as I go along. –Eshetalk 17:58, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
That's great! There should be hours upon hours of work to be found on the "Inventory Unchecked"-page - looking forward to see your results! Krusty 18:07, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
Btw, I just thought of some more important information about the project. As I can see, you're already getting busy on the inventories - and I figured, you should know about some other things we reached consensus on, when it comes to checking. The three tag-categories "Faction", "Rumors" and "Spells" can only be written from the CS - and can ONLY be checked by another CS checker. They really can't be done in-game at all (as Factions is purely CS and the other two are random in the game) - so if you check somebody and it isn't a problem looking up their faction or one of the other categories, it would be really helpful if you could do that. Anyway, I have no idea how complicated the CS is, so it was just at thought. Keep up the great work! Krusty 17:11, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. I'll try to check those as I go through the next round and the pick up the ones I missed later. Makes a lot more sense than going through each category one at a time! One problem though: I haven't the foggiest idea how to check for Rumors in the CS, so if someone could point me in the right direction then I'll get to work on those too. There's little I enjoy more than cleaning out categories :D. Thanks! –Eshetalk 17:53, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
I know, Rpeh has developed some kindda technique on how to do rumors - hopefully, he will notice this conversation and spill his tips and tricks, as that category is definately something that lacks on nearly all the pages. Krusty 19:11, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
Oof. I'm sure he'll chime in sometime. Here's hoping I can learn new tricks! –Eshetalk 19:58, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
Sorry, just notice this. Timenn already added one tip to the main page and I added another. Those should help. I also find that rather than use the in-CS Find Text feature, it can be easier to export all the dialogue to a text file and use that to find any occurrences of the NPC's name. Doesn't always work though, as not all the rumors include the name. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 10:20, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
Okay, thanks guys! I'll see what I can do. In fact I might actually do a separate round for those. I'm afraid if I keep checking a bunch of things for each NPC all at once I might accidentally miss something. I'll let you know if I hit any more walls! –Eshetalk 11:29, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
It's worth mentioning here that even after all the items in the template are marked as complete, there's still going to be a final stage of confirmation. I always thought this was going to be a very tricky project and it has already been far trickier than I had ever feared (for a worst case, see Oghash gra-Magul and the talk page). Obviously, this feature of the template shouldn't be used as an excuse for lazy editing (not that you'd ever do such a thing!) but it does mean that there's a final chance to catch any remaining errors. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 17:44, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Capitalization

I might have missed a discussion or two, but I noticed alot of words being decapitalized (Wolok gro-Barok is currently on a streak), and I was wondering if we have some guideline about it. I understand it is wise to decapitalize a couple words, they improve the flow of the text, but what words should be remain with a capital?

I suggest we keep names, at all times, capitalized. This includes names like Daedra and Dremora. Clothing, class and skills are all quite common words, so I suggest they remain to be decapitalized. Any thoughts/suggestions? --Timenn < talk > 16:55, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

As far as I can tell, what you've suggested there is pretty much the standard right now. I suppose you could throw in "items in general" as well. The only case I've seen that I'm not sure I agree with is the "akaviri katana," which I think should be "Akaviri katana," like "Blades armor."
While we're at it, I was also wondering about the standard for possessives and links. I could swear I once saw a discussion about whether we prefer Eshe's or Eshe's, but now I can't seem to find it. If anyone knows what the consensus was for that (assuming I haven't completely lost my mind and such a discussion did take place), I'd appreciate it. –Eshetalk 17:04, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
I'm fine with decapitalization of common words; as Timenn pointed out, we don't have any real guidelines, so I just went with the flow. In regards to possessives and links, I prefer SerCenKing's, since the link is not 'of SerCenKing' but rather 'SerCenKing'. --SerCenKing Talk 17:08, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
I agree. I just noticed you changing a few of them and wanted to find out if there had been some sort of decision on the matter. Thanks! –Eshetalk 17:20, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
I don't think there's a guideline, but I agree with Timenn and Eshe's common-sense approach: apart from anything else it's what I've been doing when making edits. "Imperial", "Breton" etc are proper nouns so should be capitalised; "archer", "commoner" and other class names aren't proper nouns, and neither are items of clothing like "belted braies" or "tan shirt". I agree with Timenn about Daedra and Dremora, even though those stretch the point slightly, and also agree with Eshe about "Akaviri" and "Blades".
The discussion about possessives is probably this one. Nephele's and Vesna's superb efforts at categorization are helpful, but it's even more helpful to have been around during the debate so you know where to look :) –Rpeh•T•C•E• 17:37, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
Of course, the other advantage to putting the 's outside of the link is that you can shortcut it, like this: [[User:RobinHood70|]]'s --> RobinHood70's. So if ever we change policy away from that, I want a veto! :) --Robin Hood (Talk • E-mail • Contribs) 23:57, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
A bit late to chime in, but I agree with the above decisions anyway, and the sole reason for most of the classes being capitalized is because we didn't have this discussion earlier. BUT: What about skills? I just noticed, that the "Marksman" training bit on the Pinarus Inventius-page has been changed into "marksman". I'm not really sure, if I think this is correct - but on the other hand, I think that when we mention skill books, the skill should be decapitalized. Any thoughts? Krusty 05:52, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
In the case of "Marksman", the skill should be capitalised, since "marksman" can refer to a sharpshooter or hunter; while in this case we are talking about a skill. If there are any other skills like this they should be capitalised, although none spring to my head right now. --SerCenKing Talk 06:01, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
I'd agree with that. Magic schools are being left capitalized, so I think the skills should be too. –Eshetalk 10:07, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
Having thought about it for a while, I'm just going to agree with capitalizing "Heavy Armor" et al.
I don't think the comparison to magic skills is valid: books and NPCs in the game talk about "schools of [skill]", so capitalizing "Alteration", "Conjuration" and the others makes sense in that they are recognized disciplines. Having said that, and stepping into supposition for a moment, the FG is more likely to call a spade a spade whilst the MG is more likely to mess around. In other words, the MG might use capitals to signify special status but the FG would only care about people hitting you with big sticks. Furthermore, the Fighters Guild don't separate people in the same way that the Mages Guild do, so there are no such "schools".
Everything I've said so far would lead to the conclusion that magic skills should be capitalized and non-magic skills shouldn't. In a nutshell, that would satisfy the snobbishness of the MG and the don't-really-care-ish'ness of everyone else.
The thought that some skills should receive capital letters whilst others don't might make the MG happy, but for us poor wiki editors it's going to be horrible. I think we should do what we've been doing and use capital letters for all the skills: the MG will be happy about their schools, and nobody else cared in the first place.
I can't believe I just spent so long thinking about this. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 17:16, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
It's not because you spent so long thinking about it that I think you're nuts, Rpeh - it's because you spent any time at all thinking about it in in-game terms! And I second (or third or whatever) the vote to keep all skills and schools capitalized. And probably attributes as well, when appropriate (i.e., referring clearly to the attribute itself as opposed to a general term like "speed"). --Robin Hood (Talk • E-mail • Contribs) 21:56, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Night Traders

Following on from this discussion...

Do many traders offer services during their sleep hours, or is it just one or two? Before trying to set a standard I'd like to know how prevalent each type of trader is in the game. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 20:38, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

We should probably include trainers in this discussion as well, just to be on the safe side. I suddenly remembered Uuras the Shepherd and checked him once again. And even though I broke into his house and woke him up, he would still offer training. He's one of the only service providers I have seen to do so. Krusty 21:56, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
If the "standard" is that people don't offer services, then it's worth mentioning the ones that do, I think. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 04:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Nirnroot dialogue and related quest?

So, I reckon that all(?) of Cyrodiils alchemists have a piece of unique dialogue associated with Nirnroot - and will point you towards Sinderion when asked. I would gladly add this dialogue to all the NPC pages (with some sort of standard description a la advanced trainers) but I thought I would check here first: Do we want the dialogue on the pages? And shouldn't Seeking Your Roots be added as a related quest for each and every one of them? Krusty 07:22, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't add the dialogue (it's quest-related and not unique), but it's a fair point about the related quest. They do all update the quest stage after all. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 07:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
It's not unique? Then there's no need for it. I'm going through most of the Guild members anyway (to check their services), so I'll just add the related quest as I go along. Krusty 07:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
That dialogue is unique. Each of the alchemists says something different when you first show them a Nirnroot. The follow-up dialogue is shared, I believe; as is the response they give you if you ask them about Nirnroot without any in your inventory. --Gaebrial 07:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
(ec) Actually, my bad. I was thinking of the "Good luck with your field work for Sinderion." line, which is definitely not unique. I just looked again and Brotch Calus, Claudette Perrick, Ogier Georick, Julienne Fanis, Falanu Hlaalu, Felen Relas, Angalmo, Eilonwy and S'drassa all have different lines introducing the quest. Serves me right for relying on my memory. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 07:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
And Ardaline. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 07:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay. I can see the dialogue is already included on some of the pages (Ardaline's for example, and it seems like I put it there, even though I can't remember it). I'll just add it as I go along with the services - we can always remove it later if it seems too "quest-ish"... Krusty 08:08, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the dialogues being added. It's not really quest-related but it is unique. It might have been me who brought up this point with my edit summary concerning Angalmo a while back. Wolok gro-Barok 09:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Quest-related unique dialogue

Extrapolating from the Nirnroot dialogue discussed above, a number of people have unique dialogue related to certain quests. Should this be added to the NPC's page? Some of them have unique dialogue related to quests they are not otherwise involved in. For example, the inhabitants of the Dark Brotherhood sanctuary in Cheydinhal each have something unique (I think) to say about each of the jobs you are given, and I think I remember each member of the Chorrol Mages Guild having something to say about Earana or Fingers of the Mountain while you are on that quest. While the latter is basically just background chatter, the DB dialogue contains hints to how to execute the task at hand - indeed, somebody (Vicente?) suggests that you speak to the others for tips. But is it worth mentioning? Or should we only mention that dialogue that advances the quest?

In fact, this leads to a more general question about quest dialogue. Take the Chorrol Recommendation quest again (Fingers of the Mountain) - should Teekeeus's and Earana's specific dialogue for this quest be recorded on their NPC pages? If not, should it be on the quest page?

--Gaebrial 10:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The rationale for not including quest dialogue was that it would lead to some NPC's pages being filled with text that would only be relevant at one point. Having said that, there's definitely an argument for not excluding everything. The DB lines would add colour and background, and also help to illustrate the NPC's character (Gogron gro-Bolmog's violence; Telaendril's stealth and so on), but even with just those lines there's a LOT of text to add, as there's both a helpful comment and an I-don't-like-you one. ("Ah, now this is the type of contract I live for! You must become pure shadow. It's as if you were never there, and then Roderick simply... dies." vs "This is an outrage! This contract should have gone to me! My stealth skills are unmatched! You will never succeed! Never!", for instance).
I suppose the best thing is to leave it up to the editors' discretions and then we can clean it up afterwards if necessary. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 10:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
A good and relevant question. I have thought about it a lot, as I'm finding myself adding more and more quest-related dialogue as I progress. I try to only add dialogue that gives some kind of description of the personality of the NPC, whether it's quest-related or not. Problem is, the "relevant" dialogue often connects with purely quest-related dialogue, and then the troubles begin. Take a look at Quill-Weave for example. On her talk page, I expressed my concerns with the scope of the page because of the dialogue - but looking at it again, I really can't find anything I would delete. I ended up thinking, that it's better to add a little bit more dialogue - and when the time comes to finally review the page (as we will be doing on THIS page), we can remove any unnecessary dialogue and make the page perfect. Krusty 10:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and this discussion adds a bit of information too. When an NPC only shows up during a quest and then dissapears, we might as well include his entire "performance". Krusty 10:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Madness

I think it would be fitting to list the type of "Madness" Of every NPC in the shivering isles. Because some are vague and unnoticeable at first. (Like the shopkeeper of the clothing store in Bliss). Anyone agree? Lucky the Cat Guy. 00:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think there's actually any programming that specifies the "type" of madness each character has. If we can't be objective about it, I'm not sure it's a good idea. –Eshetalk 01:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I basically mean a section telling what type of insanity the NPC has. For example, Big head. His insanity is an obsession with forks, and percieveing inanimate objects as alive and being able to sing to him. Lucky the Cat Guy. 01:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I think any weird actions are easily and already explained in the article without having to have a little section about it on each ones page. First, their citizenship shows the stylized plight they have. Second, people like Big Head have an obvious obsession. Then you have Thaedil and Tove. What I am saying is, we are bluntly saying in the article already. There doesn't need to be a separated section. –Elliot(T-C) 03:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

Err... It mentions the Adoring Fan's faction in two places on his page and teh template still says "Faction(s) = Not Writen" or something like that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Theg721 (talk • contribs) on 17:32, 10 July 2009.

Actually only one place, since I just reverted your edit ;) The reason why the page still says "Faction(s) = Not Written", is that no-one has checked yet if he joins any factions or if their rank has changed during gameplay, according to the ONPCRP-guidelines. If those two are checked, his factions are "written". Wolok gro-Barok 16:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Helping Out Also

I'll be helping out with the Project also, checking inventory. I have the 360 version so I'll be doing in game verification. Is it okay if I add my name to the Project Members section?Jplatinum16 20:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Yep, go ahead. --Elliot(T-C) 20:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd be glad to help check personal and house inventories, if you'd have me.-Kaito 20:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Of course we want you to help. Feel free to add your name to the Project Members section. Wolok gro-Barok 20:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Krusty’s impossible-to-do NPC list

The following list contains the NPCs, I consider “impossible” to write from the game. The NPCs on the list all have randomly chosen behavior, strange AI-packages or something else. I’ll try to add my experiences next to each NPC, explaining why I had to give up. I will probably update the list every once in a while. If somebody writes the NPC from the CS (which is what I hope for), please put some kind of marking on it, so we can keep track.

Written schedules in need of attention:

Also, here's a list of written NPC pages in need of a bug description:

-- Krusty 11:23, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll make those ones a priority when I get a chance. A quick look gives the following:
  • Chana Mona - has two random packages but the rest are fixed.
  • Naspia has an odd "Audience with Count Indarys" package and one that runs if it's not raining.
  • Mirabelle - yeah, a total of 6 random packages. That one's going to be horrible.
  • Heinrich only has one random package (meeting Newheim) but the rest are fixed
  • Newheim - Totally fixed. Shouldn't be a problem.
  • Timothee - Two If Raining and one random.
  • Thurindil - One If Raining and one random.
  • Caenlorn - Has one If Raining and one random.
  • Maenlorn - Weird - he should offer services 24 hours a day.
  • Isolde - has two random
  • Wilhelm - has Three random
I'll look at them in the CS and do my own stalking to see if I can resolve the problems. –rpeh•T•C•E• 12:18, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Kantav Cheynoslin; his behaviour seems to be caused by a Chapel Explore package that has a higher priority then the Sleep package. The Explore package has a duration of 2 hours, but can be activated anytime. It's condition is a random chance of 33%. So anytime his AI packages are evaluated, he has a 33% chance of waking up and starting to wander the Chapel.
His claims of ownership may be caused by the same package that has the "Unlock Doors" flags checked (usually intended for Merchants to open their shops), but I'm not sure what the conflict is precisely. --Timenn-<talk> 12:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for looking it up, Timenn. And let me get this straight: that "Chapel Explore"-package is active for an entire 24-hour day? - or is it only active at night time? The shop-thing sounds plausible enough. I'm going to pay him another visit, just to check if he gets "ownership" at the same times every night - or if that too is interrupted by the Chapel Explore-package. Krusty 21:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
The package can be activated all day, but only the Sleep package has a lower priority. The other packages have a higher priority, and aren't interrupted by it (like it works with most AI schedules). --Timenn-<talk> 11:31, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Interesting. I'll take a look at him this afternoon and post all my observations on his talkpage. Maybe we can work some kind of schedule out. Krusty 11:51, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Discussion continued on Kantav's Talk Page.

[edit] Daedric Worshipers

As some of you might have noticed, I have been adding some ONPCRP-related info to a few of the various worshipers found at the Daedric Shrines – but no schedules. Why? Because the “real” worshipers (not the ones you’ll have to talk to in order to approach the shrines) have overly complicated AI packages (as many as 13, according to rpeh’s investigation a few months back – see Angalsama for a good example), making it impossible to write from the game. Nevertheless, each worshiper has about three specific moves he/she does, and not much else. It indicates, that Bethesda might have had bigger plans with the worshipers, but decided to skip it altogether.

So my suggestion is, that we write some kind of standard “note” to put at the bottom of each page explaining the exact number of packages (also the number of packages that activates when the player isn’t even around) – and provide the usual schedule with a short description of the moves the worshiper does. Mostly because, the NPC will ALWAYS be near the shrine, doing some weird move. And because, in my opinion at least, we don’t need an overly complicated schedule describing all the percentages of chances there are that he/she will sit on the bench instead of kneeling and so on. I can try to write the note, if we reach consensus on this (and all it would take from the CS people is to count a number of packages and add them to the note, then copy/paste to the page) – so: what do you think? Yay or nay? -- Krusty 10:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] NPC Houses

A few of us discussed this in IRC, but for obvious reasons we need to bring it to the site to get more opinions.

Since GK has proven to be pretty much awesome at writing building pages and therefore house contents, it might be a good idea to start making decisions now about how to handle this for the NPC articles. I figure if we can be detailed without going overboard, it's probably not a bad thing. I would be in favor of breaking house information into a separate section on NPC pages; this way we can be more organized and even include images :). Krusty has provided an example of this in a sandbox page.

Another option is to have houses as separate pages, but doing this for every character would seem to be overkill, especially considering the relatively teensy size of many houses. It has been suggested that we create separate pages for Imperial City homes only.

Thoughts? Ready...go! –Eshetalk 02:31, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

The hardest to implement option would be the most complete and easiest to use, they could be transcluded in NPC pages, and also categorized on other useful pages. I believe that's a little overboard though, since many houses are tiny and have no significance outside of who lives there. Instead; houses could be on the general location page, without links to a house page itself. Lukish_ Tlk Cnt 02:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Ok, here's my thoughts...
To me, there's two types of homes; "one-cell" and "more-than-one-cell". One-cell homes can be described in the NPC description, just with an extra paragraph. The more-than-one-cell homes, however, I think should have a dedicated section on the NPC's page. Whether that's done as a subpage that's transcluded onto the NPC's page, or just a level-2/3 header doesn't really matter. I do love having detailed information about building contents on the wiki. Oh, and images! Yes, we need them for each one, I think, no matter how many cells. An exterior shot, and at least one interior shot for each cell. --GKTalk2me 03:10, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Obviously, since the example can be found in my sandbox, I’m in favor of doing this. And I agree with GK, this should be done with ”more-than-one-cell”-houses only. Also, my suggestion would be that we begin with the Imperial City houses. Why? Mostly because it would be ridiculous doing this with, say, Bravil homes. If you look at City-Swimmer’s house description on her page, you will find that it is fitting for her lower-class apartment with a brief description amidst the usual ONPCRP-stuff. Of course, there’s some food in her apartment as well, but I don’t think it’s overly necessary to list all bread loafs and cheese wedges on all pages, nor is it necessary to mention if the barrels and cupboards contain food or clutter. At least not to begin with. For a home like that, the original guidelines for the ONPCRP is more than fitting and I think we should continue writing them like that. The Imperial City houses is another matter. They are huge, loaded with goods and kindda deserves the special treatment. Looking at the example in my sandbox, doing it this way is not only informative, it also adds a collosal ”wow-factor” to the page – and we like that.
To sum it up: yes, I think this is a good idea, as long as we limit ourselves to the Imperial City houses. In time, we can discuss doing it in other cities, but for now I think we should say IC houses only. --Krusty 07:25, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I have been thinking about this in order to get a focused view point. If we want to be an encyclopedia on The Elder Scrolls, then we have to have everything. So, I believe that we need individual articles on each and every house within the game; most with their own page. Ones that won't have a page are houses that are one-cell, as mentioned before. (Although, there is a part of me that says we need an article on every single house because we have an article on every single NPC, ignoring importance/effect on that game; I mean, we have an article on a dog and pig...) I am still undecided as to which I really feel like pushing for. But, here is my idea:
One-cell Houses
  • Mention of some information on the owner's page
  • Exterior/interior image
  • Mention of important items in a brief manner
2+-cell Houses
  • Own page
  • One or two shots per cell (as usual), exterior shot (as main)
  • Mention of the majority of items
However, there are some benefits of having every house with its page. The major one would be the {{Place Summary}} template and its auto trailing and categorizing. I see that as something huge. Also, it might be easier for some to find information about the houses if they each had their own page. Frankly, I see no problem with it as I mentioned earlier, we have pages on NPCs despite their impact within the game. Just because a house has little content hardly matters to me. It matters in terms of what is done first, and what is done last. Also, it would be good practice for the upcoming game. –Elliot talk 08:27, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't like the idea of having a lot of house pages. When we're talking guild halls, chapels and the like, it's another matter because these are buildings not owned specifically by one NPC. It would be clumsy to have pages called "Hagaer's House", "Dul gro-Shug's House" and so on, and I think it is un-necessary, at least for the time being. The Sandbox example works for me, mostly because the house descriptions can still be part of the ONPCRP (which is practical) and because we will end up with tons of pages and another never-ending project with only two or three participants. I say, let's do the Imperial City the "Sandbox way" and THEN decide whether or not it would be useful to make seperate pages. Krusty 16:42, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I have to agree with Krusty here. I'm not opposed to eventually having individual house pages, but I think the middle of one huge project is not the time to introduce another fairly hefty project.
I also agree with the Cell Standard, but separate house sections shouldn't be limited to IC houses, as there are some pretty good-sized houses elsewhere as well. I will start grabbing images for IC houses since it seems we all agree we want eye candy, and hopefully progress from there, assuming I don't lose my mind first! Any preferences as to which district I should start with? –Eshetalk 17:22, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, every house page will be created right due to redirects and whatnot, no? Then why not just transfer all of the information onto there? Seems simple enough to me. It would only need a little bit of tweaking. –Elliot talk 17:59, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't think we'd said anything about redirects... I really think that the house info being on the NPC's page is sufficient, and rather fitting. Even if we do eventually decide to give them articles of their own, I'd think it would make sense for those pages to be transcluded onto the NPC's page, and then why would they need to be separate articles? Basically, I'm not against it, but I don't see the benefit of having individual house articles. --GKTalk2me 18:38, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm not opposed to separate pages either - all I'm saying is, let's do this the easy way. We have the ONPCRP with the "house written by" and "house checked by" options, making it much more simple to control what's been written and checked. And the Sandbox example looks good enough to keep if we decide NOT to go for separate pages in the end. That is why I think we should wait with the separate pages - once we've "beat" the Imperial City (and it will be a LONG time from now) we can judge whether or not separate pages is the better idea. Oh, and I'm only suggesting the Imperial City as first project because it is the "hard one". If we can get through that, we can easily take on the rest of Cyrodiil. If, on the other hand, we feel we should stop because - A) the other houses are too empty, or B) GK goes insane - there is some kind of good feeling about having covered the IC only. That's why I'm only doing the Market District stores for example.
Eshe, it's a bit hard to say which houses to begin with, as we haven't really started yet - but GK have done LOTS of pages recently, and I bet she would be happy to see some images on there. And, all the 14(?) written Market District stores needs images as well. --Krusty 18:54, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't see any specific reason why we should limit ourselves to the Imperial City. Every house at least deserves to be done the sandbox way. I like the idea of having individual articles for every house, even though it means a lot more work and a change to what we have been doing so far. I also think it's best to start with it now (if that's the decision of course), because the longer we wait, the more work that potentially has to be done. Filling in house details on an NPC's page before deciding individual house articles are the way to go means double work, as it's probably not just a copy and paste work. Therefore, I think a decision has to be taken now. Talk Wolok gro-Barok Contributions 21:25, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Forgive me for not being able to understand completely where you stand in this, Wolok. You think separate articles/pages is the way to go, or...? As for my suggestion about doing the Imperial City first: I like the idea of doing all the houses of Cyrodiil the sandbox way, but let's be realistic - it WILL be another giant project like the OPRP or ONPCRP and with only three or four truly active content editors, it might just die in time. And IF it dies, it makes sense to me that it dies after the Imperial City. --Krusty 12:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciations

I am making this post to explain why I removed the pronunciations from the NPCs. Basically it comes down to these: it was not done for the majority of the NPCs, it was highly inconsistent, it used a weird system of IPA (not the normal IPA), and the people who were interested in it seemed to give up on the mini-project. –Elliot talk 18:58, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree they should have gone, although they were pretty cool. XD Next time give me a warning though, I had a bit of a shock when half of the NPCs on my watchlist came up as "removing pronounciations"! --SerCenKing Talk 19:59, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
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