UESPWiki talk:Oblivion Places Redesign Project

The UESPWiki – Your source for The Elder Scrolls since 1995

Contents 1 Initial Ideas 2 Console Location Coordinates 3 Progress Page 4 Important Treasure - Nirnroot 5 I'm back! 6 Possible Data Problem? 7 Water in Overlays 8 Map Keys 9 Interesting places that do not appear on the map.................

[edit] Initial Ideas

This discussion has been moved from User Talk:Nephele in order to collect all the information about this project in one place. These were the initial thoughts that kicked off this project.

Okay, all the NPCs are done (yay!). So, I'm kinda just floating around doing general organizing and cleanup... do you have any projects you could use my help on? --GuildKnight (Talk) ^contribs 15:01, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Well, we can't let you be bored now, can we? If I remember correctly, you're playing on Xbox 360 which means some projects that involve checking numbers in the construction set aren't easily possible. There are a few things on the UESPWiki:Task List that don't require the construction set (fleshing out the NPCs from the official mods, reformatting the house upgrades). But if you'd like another overwhelming-in-scope project like the NPCs, I'm guessing we can find something ;)

First, if you come across anything you think you'd like to work on, but you can't just because you don't have the construction set information, let me know. I can probably find a quick and dirty way to dump out the information you're looking for, then give you the information and let you take care of figuring out where it goes and how to do it. Just as an example (and not necessarily the best one), if you were interested in daedric quest dialogues I could print out all the dialogues for each of the daedric princes, and you could go through and add them to the pages.

Second, a more specific idea that crossed my mind is to work on the pages describing each cave and ruin. Right now, the vast majority of the pages have just been filled in somewhat randomly as various editors have explored them, and each individual editor has noted down a few things that they noticed. As a result, I think the various pages listed at Oblivion:Places are incomplete and/or inconsistent. Some ideas that I've had for information that should consistently be on the pages:

• Proper identification of inhabitants (i.e., sometimes it will say "animals" because there was a single random rat, but every cave in the game can have random rats, so I don't think that qualifies. Or it will say "undead" when perhaps the dungeon specifically has only ethereal undead).
  • Identify all bosses
• Count of inhabitants, too (although there are then questions of how to count... but I'm sure we could come up with an answer)
• Number and type of boss chest(s) (tie into the table on Dungeons)
• Perhaps the number of other chests? (add more documentation on types of chests?)
• Number of plants (cairn boletes, wisp stalks)
• Number and type of traps (with some consistent names for types of traps)
• Guaranteed loot (other than clutter? or only enchanted?)
  • especially enchanted items, skill books, alchemy equipment
  • grand soul gems

These are just ideas, and I'd welcome any input or suggestions to flesh them out. When you start thinking about it, there's some of this that could also be done with buildings in cities. For example, exactly what ingredients are available guaranteed in each mages guild? What weapons can be found in each fighters guild?

So in other words another huge, open-ended project ;) Like with the NPCs I could just dump out all the information from the construction set (in fact, I already have a similar file that I use to quickly look up facts on any dungeon or interior location... if you want to just get a first, rough idea of what kind of information there is I could email you that file). It would probably require a bit more work than it did with the NPCs to take the information from the data dump and put it onto the pages (in particular because more of the information is likely to be added to the notes rather than just all put into the infobox).

Anyway, that's just one idea if you wanted some inspiration. As I said, if there's anything else you think would be interesting but you just need the data, I'd be happy to provide whatever data you need. --Nephele^Talk 16:18, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Like I said, it's like a jigsaw puzzle to me, so if you'd like to provide me with the info, I'd enjoy filling it in and reformatting the places.

BTW, I was actually working on the house upgrades as you were responding, but I should have that completed in just a few days. I'd like to come up with an infobox on each house that has all the info on the house; Who you buy it from, who you purchase upgrades from, any involved quests, price of purchase, price of upgrades, # of containers (bare and fully upgraded), etc, all in one pretty box for each house. Do you think that's possible? Would all that info easily go into one box? And is there a tutorial-type page on how to create those infoboxes? --GuildKnight (Talk) ^contribs 16:43, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

After saving my previous reply, I realized you were already well ahead of me on the house information :)

Unfortunately, infoboxes tend to be the most complex templates that we use on the site... and we haven't even written up any tutorials on how to write simple templates ;) I've learned what I know by reading wikimedia's pages (for example, Help:Template and then pages linked to from there), but I know those can get pretty hard to digest pretty quickly. And also, by looking through existing templates and experimenting. But I know I've been making the templates more and more complex, so there aren't too many easy-to-start-with examples any more.

What might be an easier starting place is to work on just the layout of the infobox, without worrying about all the variables and if statements that end up making the template ugly. For example, User:Nephele/Sandbox/2 has the NPC summary infobox from before it got changed into a template. Copy and paste that whole box to a sandbox, experiment with it to understand the table layout, and then modify it to make it look like the new infobox you'd like to create. (And if while you're at it, you'd like to improve our Help:Tables page that would be great, because I know right now that help page really just describes html tables, not wiki tables). Once you get to that point, I can help with turning it into a real template (and we could make a tutorial out of the process... I can go through the conversion step by step and save each step so it's available as a reference for you or anyone else in the future). As always, ask if you have any questions :) --Nephele^Talk 17:11, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Okay, just fiddling with the tables in my sandbox gave me a good idea of the way it works, but it's still confusing. Would you mind taking a look at User:GuildKnight/Sandbox/2?

Things I need help with:

• How do I make the "Price to Purchase Home" and "Upgrades Purchsed From" boxes look like the "Home Purchased From" box?
• The column width thing is confusing me. The only way I could get it to work was to specify 1 column for the "Count Regulus Terentius," "4000 gold," and "Nilawen" boxes, but how will I do that when there are more upgrades, and therefore more columns?

Your assistance is greatly appreciated. --GuildKnight (Talk) ^contribs 19:40, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

By the way, if it's not feasible, I can always just do a separate table for each house. Even including the official mods' houses, that would only be ten to do. --GuildKnight (Talk) ^contribs 19:54, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

OK, I edited your sandbox to tackle your first question, and made another little tweak while I was at it. But the column question is a good one. Because presumably you'd like to be able to have six evenly spaced columns in the top half, but then be able to have seven or eight evenly spaced columns in the bottom half. Which basically means having separate tables in the top half and the bottom half. It's definitely possible, but it will require a couple extra complications... whether you do it as part of a template or do them as individual tables. I'll play with it a bit and see what seems to work best. --Nephele^Talk 00:07, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for the help. By the way, Skingrad has the most upgrades (15), so that's the most columns I'd need in the second half. Do you think a table of that size would be better as a single row, or one row of 8 columns and one row of 7 columns?

Oh, yeah... how would I change the colors in the table? --GuildKnight (Talk) ^contribs 00:17, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

I'd guess Skingrad probably will need to take up two rows, because 15 columns will be a bit unmanageable, especially for readers with lower screen resolutions.

The {{BG|#a41a1a}} bit specifies the header colors, using html color codes. A google search on "html color codes" will probably give you some tables showing what colors correspond to which codes. --Nephele^Talk 00:32, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

I've put a new version of your table into my sandbox, User:Nephele/Sandbox/2, and worked out how to do six columns on top and seven columns on the bottom (just as a demo: the seventh column is just a copy of the sixth one). It's looking like doing this as a real template might be a fair bit of trouble, though, since the number of columns on the bottom has to be variable, and it even has to be able to deal with Skingrad's 15 columns. It's not that it's impossible, but it seems like perhaps more trouble than it's worth for ten uses. Let me know what you think. --Nephele^Talk 19:29, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, it seems to me like more work than its worth. Good learning experience for me, though. And I now know how to make an infobox for each house. Thanks! I'll let you know when I'm done with the houses so I can get the info on the caves and ruins. Thank you so much for your help. --GuildKnight (Talk) ^contribs 11:50, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

Alright... Houses are done... once again, what now ;) How are we gonna go about doing the caves and ruins? Also, do you think this conversation should be moved? It's getting really long. --GuildKnight (Talk) ^contribs 20:32, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

Great, thanks for doing all that!

If we want to get into adding to the caves and ruins, we should perhaps have the discussion in a more cave/ruin-related page. Oblivion Talk:Places is the first place that comes to mind, which is where previous upgrades to these pages were discussed. UESPWiki_talk:Style_Guide/Place_Layout is also a possibility. And I'll send you an email with some example data just to give you something to mull over :) --Nephele^Talk 20:50, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Console Location Coordinates

Is it a good idea to include the coordinates of the exterior cell to the Console Location Code section of a Place Summary? Now it only gives the cell names, which works for the interior cells (they can be used by the coc console command). But this does not work with the exterior cell. To teleport there you have to type: cow {Worldspace} {coords}. Like in the case of the example it would be: cow Tamriel 8,-5. So, in that case, should "Tamriel 8,-5" be added? --Timenn 08:24, 7 June 2007 (EDT)

I've been able to coc using exterior cell names, e.g., coc WenyandawikExterior (although it can be quirky as usual with coc... that one in particular I recall putting me behind the front door to Wenyandawik, so I had to tcl to move anywhere). But the coordinates could definitely be added too, either in the infobox or in the section with details about the exterior. --Nephele^Talk 10:34, 7 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Progress Page

Since we now have several people all wanting to work on this project, I thought I'd bite the bullet and create a progress page. My initial stab is located here (UESPWiki:Oblivion_Places_Redesign_Project/Progress). I haven't filled everything in yet and haven't put on all the description I think it needs, but the site seems really slow tonight and I want to do some other stuff before it's my bedtime. Please let me know what you think (do we need it, is this enough, whatever). Oh, and welcome to everybody! It's quite splendid to see you all here. --Rpeh^Talk 16:24, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

I just realized that one thing it needs is a way of "reserving" work - a sort of "I'm on it" flag. Perhaps put your name in a column to do that, then strike it out using <s>...</s> when it's done? Any other ideas? --Rpeh^Talk 16:37, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

Sounds like a good idea to me. Hopefully that way everybody won't be working on the same thing at the same time. Hooray organization! --Eshe 16:52, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

With more people getting involved, we probably do need a better way of keeping track of the status. But I'm not sure that creating a separate table to do that is the best approach. It's a huge amount of extra overhead to maintain the table, and that information is completely disconnected from the pages themselves. I think an approach using categories, where the information is kept on the individual pages, would be a lot easier to maintain. That's sort of why I introduced the Template:cleanup-oprp tag: to create an automatic category (at Category:Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Needing Cleanup) that lists all the pages that need to have work done.

I think improving the cleanup tag/category system would be an easier way to keep track of this kind of information. You won't end up with a single table like the progress page, but you could have one category for pages that need walkthroughs, another for pages that need maps, perhaps a category listing all the pages that have been completely finished, etc. With the categories, you could update a page's status at the same time that you are editing the page, instead of having to remember as an additional step to separately update the progress page. Also, the information on the page's status could be shown right on the page; that status would always be in sync with the categories.

From a completely selfish point of view, a category-based approach would definitely be a lot less work for me. With the progress tables, I'd be the one who has to add the new entries to the table each time I generate data for a new batch of places. Going through and adding 25-50 new lines to the table, all scattered in different locations across the page, would be a big extra hassle... it would be much more work than just posting the new data on the data page. On the other hand, with cleanup tags/categories, I can make that information automatically be added to each set of data.

If anyone else thinks expanding the category system is worth trying, I can put a new template together to demonstrate how it would work and what would be possible. --Nephele^Talk 17:13, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

I did wonder about adding the overlay and data parts, since it's always going to be you, but I didn't want it to look like I was creating a page just to get my name in lights! The category system is great for overall progress but it doesn't let you reserve parts, which was one of the main ideas. At the moment, I make a list of overlays you've sent me then fast travel around and grab all the screenshots at once before doing the stitching and pasting. I didn't want to spend ages gathering screenshots to find that somebody had beaten me to the punch. Or vice versa for that matter. How would it be if we took the first two columns off, then the rest of us can steer clear of each other without giving you a load of unnecessary work? --Rpeh^Talk 00:25, 3 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Important Treasure - Nirnroot

The main page queries whether Nirnroot should be included in the Important Treasure section. I would suggest that yes, this ought to be considered Important Treasure and included in the data/walkthrough. --Kementari 15:29, 3 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] I'm back!

So, fill me in... what needs to be done? --GuildKnight (Talk) ^contribs 15:50, 3 July 2007 (EDT)

Welcome back! Good to see some of the old faces returning. What needs doing? Well Nephele's the only one that can do the overlays, so for us mortals: Screenshots and Walkthroughs. Reserve anything you want to do on the progress page and good luck! --Rpeh^Talk 07:47, 4 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Possible Data Problem?

I've just noticed this update. I don't have the game with me so I can't check it, but is there a minor problem with the data generator? --Rpeh^Talk 07:49, 4 July 2007 (EDT)

Yep, I found the source of the bug; now I'm just going through all the data that's been posted so far to see if it cropped up anywhere else (in between a couple other things, so it's taking a while). Having people take the time, like Morodren did, to double check whether the automatic data makes sense really helps me. I don't have time to proofread everything that's being spit out (especially since usually it requires comparison to what happens when you're playing the game), so there will inevitably be a few problems that come up. This one actually was a mistake on my part, but there are also cases where the game does some screwy things that my scripts have no chance of picking up (placing a welkynd stone a mile away from the nearest section of the dungeon; putting a gas trap behind a wall so it never has any effect; having a second section of the dungeon that is completely disconnected from the section that can be accessed, etc.) So please fix mistakes that you see, everyone, and give me a heads up if there's something that probably needs to be fixed on my end! --Nephele^Talk 13:03, 4 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Water in Overlays

(moved here from main article)

I've just spotted the nice new maps of Fort Magia with their nice blue bits. Is this a new addition to the overlay and (cringing inwardly at the thought) am I going to have to redo all the ones I've already done? --Rpeh^Talk 03:59, 5 July 2007 (EDT)

Color-coding underwater areas is a feature that seems like it would be useful. On the other hand, it is a lot of extra effort. And it's something that has to be done by hand... there's no overlay to help out this time around (unless somebody can teach me how to process the all the landscape information, that at the moment I've actually just deleted from this copy of my Oblivion.esm file as unintelligible junk that takes up altogther too much space). About the only non-depressing aspect of the job is that it only affects a small subset of the maps: most map areas have no water.

Overall, just getting all the maps updated is a higher priority, especially since there's information in the map overlays that is needed to complement the new text being added to the pages. The underwater stuff is probably even a lower priority than my pipe-dream about adding exterior maps ;) So unless you're chomping at the bit and desperately eager to tackle the water bits (which I'm guessing it's safe to assume is not the case!), I'd say ignore it ;) --Nephele^Talk 12:38, 5 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Map Keys

Just a quick question--Rpeh and I have been putting a NewLine above the Exterior section on the pages with the new formats, or at least that's the way I've been doing it. I noticed some of the other pages used NewLeft instead...which way is best? I'll fix them, I swear, I just need to know which way to do it. Thanks! --Eshe 23:31, 6 July 2007 (EDT)

I'd been using NewLeft to force text under any images I'd added, but when I started putting the key on too, I thought it looked better to have if fully over to the right so as to line up with the maps so started using NewLine instead. Personally, I'd stick to NewLine but in general it's whatever looks best. (And remember, not everybody uses your screen resolution or thumb size!) --Rpeh^Talk 09:14, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Interesting places that do not appear on the map.................

I think during this project we should create pages giving short descriptions on the interesting places that do not appear on the map. I have some examples here-

• If you look very slightly to the northeast of the ayleid ruin of Belaburo near Anvil, there is a crashed pirateship. You cannot enter it but there is a chest nearby it containing minor loot.
• The first 'All things Alchemical' shop outside the Imperial city near lake rumare does not appear on the map although it is a rather interesting wreckage containing some loose potions.
• Just east of the 'o' in Valus mOuntains is a spooky looking circle of dead trees. In the centre is a spiked pole with skulls skewered on it and a chest containing a minor amount of gold and some very minor loot. Im pretty sure you can stash equipment in this chest- i tested it once.

I might create this page/these pages myself, although i am rather ignorant of the construction set and wilderness cells etc. But firstly does anybody think that this page would be a good idea, or not?--Willyhead 07:55, 8 July 2007 (EDT)

That sounds like a good idea - we already have Isolated House, after all - but my concern would be that such a page would become like the Glitches page in that everybody would put up details of anything even a little bit out of the ordinary. Incidentally, The burnt 'All Things Alchemical' is mentioned on Falanu Hlaalu's page. --Rpeh^Talk 09:05, 8 July 2007 (EDT)

Well, there is already a similar section for Shivering Isles places. People don't seem to have gone insane over that, so one could therefore assume that a similiar section for Oblivion places could be kept in an ordered state. --Saruuk 08:53, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

As I said, I'm game - just a little nervous! I know you can't enforce rules of this nature but I'd suggest all entries have to have an image (See here for advice), as they do on the Shivering page. That might keep the signal to noise ratio at a decent level. --Rpeh^Talk 09:12, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

Ive made the page- it's here. All i need now are images and Online map locations.--Willyhead 07:58, 14 July 2007 (EDT)