Which Elder Scrolls game had the best expansions?

[Br3admax ●]

That's just items getting better overtime.

Except for the fact that they don't, unless you're specifically referring to the KotN artifacts and relics, which are the only ones that actually do.

What I meant was, a leveled items list is not an example of level restrictions. The items level with the player until they are obtained.

[OblivionDuruza ●]

Exactly. Almost all their DLC's are recommended for level 20, or level 30.

If that were true then how do you explain the fact that you can usually access them at first level? I think the highest level requirement I've ever seen on a DLC expansion was level six for Tribunal and that was strictly for the console version, and level ten for Dawnguard. I think you could "theoretically" even start Dragonborn at first level is you advanced the MQ far enough without ever actually leveling (which I know some people used to do with Oblivion, but I'm not sure why you'd do this in Skyrim). The only real problem I have with them is that they tend to "break" the vanilla game before I've played it. My "fix" for this is simple enough though. I just don't install the expansions until I've completed the MQ, at least. Got the Skyrim Legendary pack, for example, and hated it. Installed just the base "vanilla" game and now I'm level 32, and so far all I've really done is completed Dragon Rising in the MQ and the Companions quest line. Still so much to do, and having a blast doing it. There'll be plenty of time later for the expansions and DLC.

You can go to Mournhold at level 1, but good luck progressing more than a few quests into the Tribunal questline unless you play the game in a very gamey manner. There's a clear distinction between suggesting and restricting. Just because Bethesda did not do the latter, does not mean that it did not do the former; or that they did not design higher level content for their fans to buy and play after having a few months in which they played the vanilla game, levelled their characters and started to feel less challenge fighting mudcrabs.

Honestly, I think we're all in basic agreement on the principle here, it's just we're looking at it from different perspectives. Nobody really disagrees that Tribunal and Bloodmoon are better for characters that are level 20+, do they?

[godsmack ●]

Define "better". "Better" how? Considering that it was the content that was included that gave characters of any level a significant edge, is it really any wonder why it proved so attractive to low level characters as well as, if not more so, than higher level, and thus better equipped characters? The point that seems to be missed is that it was the items and rewards that empowered characters to be able to compete. The "challenge" factor was highly inflated and vicariously illusionary since I doubt that very many players could honestly claim that it was their characters doing any of the real work of defeating enemies and keeping them alive as much as it was their assorted equipment. Even a fully Daedric outfitted warrior would be hard pressed to survive Gaenor sans enchantments such as in-game artifacts, etc. As a matter of fact, Gaenor is a prime example of the sort of fudged challenge factor I'm referring to. With a Luck of what? 770? That had full effect of boosting all his abilities and skills well past the normal 100 cap, which is impossible to achieve for any other character in the game. For any other character, no matter how insanely high you boost your luck, all your skills still cap out at 100. Apparently not so with Gaenor, not to even mention other mysteriously unaccounted for abilities that came neither from racial abilities, spells or enchantments. From the wiki "Aside from his natural resistance to disease, and the ability to command animals, Gaenor knows no spells." and "He is one of the toughest opponents in the game due to his armor and abilities, including his very high Reflect and Resist Magicka, constant health regeneration, high skills, Strength, and incredibly high Luck." So he doesn't know any magic, and aside from a magic amulet that is only a CE 15 point Luck boost, where do all these other abilities come from and how can they legitimately be accounted for? The fact is that they can't. Gaenor is what was known to older pen-and-paper RPers as a DM or GM's "god killer". Some insanely powerful NPC that a moderator has to fudge to create to keep OP characters in check. The only problem here is that it usually stemmed from moderators that ran "monty haul" campaigns, were overly generous and gave away too many freebies that produced uber OP characters and there were no more "normal" challenges left. It was the inexperienced moderator's mistakes in the first place that produced this effect, and the "god slayer" NPC was his ace to ensure his players didn't simply get bored. I honestly don't see much difference here considering the fact that it is all the artifacts and in-game content that results in characters that need a "Gaenor" to keep them sharp and on their toes, as if Goblins, Liches and Werewolves weren't enough. Even then there are ways to effectively "punk" Gaenor as the "tips" on the wiki article attest to.

The Natural

I went toe-to-toe with Gaenor with an artifact-empowered Redguard and it was the longest fight in the game. By the time the dust settled most of our armor and weapons were broken and the only way I beat him was by summoning a fresh Bound weapon, which is a Daedric quality magic weapon that boosts combat skill available as a first level spell.

[VioletDolphin55 ●]

I voted for Oblivion because of the Shivering Isles. But Skyrim had some good ones too.

[Emzi 43 ●]

You're level one straight out of helgen isn't going to last long against ash spawn on solthseim, and believe me, when I went there with my dunmer prisoner in bloodmoon, straight out of seyda neen, I was asked to escort some workers to raven rock, or the site at least. Killed by the first wolf I saw. Yeah, content is designed for higher level in most DLC

[OblivionDuruza ●]

Having now played through Dragonborn, I have to say that while it certainly is a good expansion, and a great nostalgia kick, there are certainly several elements that hold it back. I wasn't a huge fan of the way it felt (noticably so) as though it forced the Dragonborn into certain choices

Spoiler:

such as with the interaction of Mora and the Skaal, not to mention with regard to the House War between the Redoran and Hlaalu

Therefore, I have to say that any doubt I original harboured awarding the title to Morrowind has well and truly been addressed.

Certainly, the Dragonborn questline's abysmally short length, especially when placed in comparison to Dawnguard's, is a huge factor in why it feels a little shallow as a DLC, and more of an item produced as a fan-service than as something to stand on its own two feet.

Even then there are ways to effectively "punk" Gaenor as the "tips" on the wiki article attest to.

But that's precisely what I mean by playing the game in a 'gamey' fashion.

[ElderSkillz ●]

Oblivion Duruza nailed it. Morrowind's expansions felt like natural extensions of the story. While Oblivion's expansions were really fun standalone adventures, but they felt patched on. Same with Skyrim. Plus vampire attacks murdering your NPCs while you're talking to someone on the other side of town is something I can't stand.