Lore talk:Heart Stone

Nirncrux

[[Lore:Nirncrux|Nirncrux]] can also be used as a Heartstones.{{ref|name=ESOHOTRBR|[https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26149 Horns of the Reach - Bloodroot Forge Preview] on the official [[Online:Online|ESO]] website}} The Dreadhorn Clan, composed of [[Lore:Reachmen|Reachmen]] and [[Lore:Minotaur|Minotaurs]] worked [[Lore:Hircine|Hircine]]'s [[Lore:Bloodroot Forge|Bloodroot Forge]].{{ref|name=ESOHOTR|[https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26111 Horns of the Reach and Update 15 Preview] on the official [[Online:Online|ESO]] website}} Any settlers near the area were either sacrificed or enslaved, and forced to mine Nirncrux to feed the forge.{{ref|name=ESOHOTR}} The Reachmen turned themselves into the Blood-Forged. These abominations are comparable to Briarhearts, but their creation involves implanting a nirncrux heartstone instead of a [[Lore:Briar Heart|briar heart]],{{ref|name=ONF|[[Online:Filand|Filand]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} resulting in a being that is an amalgamation of blood, nirncrux, and iron.{{ref|name=ONBloodForged|[[Online:Skins#Blood-Forged|Blood-Forged]] skin description in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}

While Heartstones from Red Mountain are thought to be the molten lava that interacted with the Heart of Lorkhan,{{ref|name=Neloth}} some [[Lore:Nord|Nords]] believe Nirncrux to be the blood of their version of Lorkhan, [[Lore:Shor|Shor]].{{ref|name=ONRH|[[Online:Rena Hammerhands|Rena Hammerhands]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}

File:ON-wallpaper-The Horns of the Reach 02-7726x4712.jpg|The Blood-Forged ritual, heart being replaced with a Nirncrux Heartstone
File:ON-npc-Gherig Bullblood.jpg|A Blood-Forged Reachman

I have removed the above from the page. The only source for "Nirncrux Heartstones" is a preview article from the ESO website that mentions the term. Information on Nirncrux belongs on the Nirncrux page. We have no reason to believe the Heartstones from Red Mountain are the same substance as the Nirncrux the Dreadhorn were implanting in their chests. The line associating the Heart of Lorkhan with Shor's blood is veering into original research.

The above information might be better under a "Blood-Forged" header on Lore:Nirncrux or something similar, and a note can be added to this page explaining the use of the term "heartstone" in reference to this ritual. However, we do not need this much information about Nirncrux on a page about the stones that came out of Red Mountain after the Red Year; we know from Neloth's dialogue that they are something unique. —⁠Legoless (talk) 00:05, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I believe that while Nirncrux 'heartstones' and the Heartsones from the Red Mountains both serve similar function they certainly could use separation. Perhaps moving the info specific to the Nirncrux heartstones could be moved to the new page "Blood-Forged" (with certain tweaks of course and appropriate notes) could be done instead of putting it on the Nirncrux page. Blood-Forged arent that much different from Briarhearts who have their page and Nirncrux itself is not connected to the Red Mountain Heartstones in any direct way - such connection between two different things that share name and have similar function is much more feasible as a note in the hpothetical Blood-Forged page rather than on the one devoted to Nirncrux specifically. Tyrvarion (talk) 00:53, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

"The earth's beating heart! It thunders day and night, shaping their twisted Heartstones and wicked blades that thirst for blood. Those of us they take to the Forge never return.

Will you spare the others from that fate?"

"The fruits of the Forge, their Heartstones and weapons, twist them into bloodthirsty monsters whose flesh and blood is stone and fire. They turn out more with each passing day."

Why did you ignore the Filand citation? Why can't two different types of Heartstones be on the same page? The page doesn't claim they are Heartstones that come from the same source or are the same thing, but they are a Heartstone lorewise.Zebendal (talk) 01:27, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Regardless what is the conclusion regarding heartsones I believed that creation of the Blood-Forged lore page is not bad idea. Tyrvarion (talk) 02:21, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

In any case I think the info should be present on the Heartstone, Nirncrux, and Blood-Forged pages, just have a varying amount of it on each (I'm not sure which one should have the most, maybe Nirncrux). Also unsure what the content on the Blood-Forged page would be compared to the Bloodroot Forge page, would be like the mind-shriven page? The Rim of the Sky (talk) 02:30, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Rim here. If Legoless is afraid that they will get confused between Red Mountain's Heartstones, and Bloodroot Forge's, then the page should be reworded to reflect it. However, noth are Heartstones so they should remain in the same page.Zebendal (talk) 02:33, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I think the term "heartstone" is being used as a descriptor, not that it means "nirncrux is literally heartstones from Dragonborn". They're replacing the heart with nirncrux, ergo the "stone" being the "heart", ergo "heartstone". We don't have any room for speculation on this. This article is about the Heart Stones from Dragonborn, not Nirncrux. If anything, the blood-forged stuff should be moved to Lore:Nirncrux. Putting it here just because an article describes them as "nirncrux heartstones" seems kind of like a false equivalence based on assumptions that the "two kinds of heartstones" are even remotely related beyond having strange, mystical power and originating from the world. -MolagBallet (talk) 19:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

*[Lore:Nirncrux|Nirncrux]] can also be used as a Heartstones.{{ref|name=ESOHOTRBR|[https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26149 Horns of the Reach - Bloodroot Forge Preview] on the official [[Online:Online|ESO]] website}} *While Heartstones from Red Mountain are thought to be the molten lava that interacted with the Heart of Lorkhan,{{ref|name=Neloth}} some [[Lore:Nord|Nords]] believe Nirncrux to be the blood of their version of Lorkhan, [[Lore:Shor|Shor]].{{ref|name=ONRH|[[Online:Rena Hammerhands|Rena Hammerhands]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}

While Neloth does state that the heart of Lorkhans power may have seeped into the lava creating these heartstones. The Nirncrux is directly believed to be the actual blood of the Lorkhan's Shor aspect. Since we know Shor/Lorkhan is the same deity, and since we know that is the case since the Heart of Lorkhan was also the Heart of Shor and that was the main reasons the Nord went to the Battle of Red Mountain because that gave Shor/Lorkhan the possible means of reclaiming his heart. Even if the mechanics of the two types of Heartstones are different, the connection they have to Lorkhan is implied to be the same and thus should at least be noted in a Notes section. The fact they can be used as Heartstones should be noted do to the lore connection to Lorkhan. We don't need to go into details with the other stuff as that should be on the Nirncrux page anyways, but that one sentence talking about the connection to the Heart of Lorkhan and Nirncrux potentially being the blood of Shor should be mentioned as well. So all that really needs to be done is making those two things I listed above a note. Then leaving all of the rest of the information related to the Nirncrux/Bloodforge off the Heart Stone lore page.TheVampKnight (talk) 23:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Why would an article called Lore:Heartstone/Heart Stone only include Heartstones from Dragonborn? I would agree with you Molag, but the fact that the term Heartstone is capitalized in the context to Bloodroot Forge and isn't just being used as a descriptor. Clearly they are probably not the same thing, but the article doesn't claim that.Zebendal (talk) 23:49, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I suggested that a note might be added to this page explaining the use of the term "heartstone" in reference to Nirncrux. That way, the information is included on this page but readers are redirected elsewhere. To my mind, the fact that the only source that uses the term in this context is a promotional (non-lore-related) website article, I'm inclined to give Red Mountain Heartstones precedence for use of the article name. —⁠Legoless (talk) 01:35, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

(←) First, a response to Vamp regarding the blood of Shor.
"The Nirncrux is directly believed to be the actual blood of the Lorkhan's Shor aspect. Since we know Shor/Lorkhan is the same deity, and since we know that is the case since the Heart of Lorkhan was also the Heart of Shor and that was the main reasons the Nord went to the Battle of Red Mountain because that gave Shor/Lorkhan the possible means of reclaiming his heart."
The lines being cited to "prove" that Nirncrux is "Shor's blood" are as follows:
What is this place?
"Does it matter? It's a curse turned to a blessing! When we learn to stoke the fires as the Reachmen did, we'll hunt their kind to the ends of Nirn!"
It'd be a shame to let such power be wasted.
"Whoever built this Forge tapped Shor's blood, to answer treachery with his mighty vengeance, I'm certain! We'll honor his name with every stamp of its hammer!"
Rena doesn't say what the blood of Shor is. It could be the lava, or Shor's emotional fury for all we know. What I'm saying is "Nirncrux is believed to be Shor's blood" is original research. Rena literally never clarifies what Shor's blood is. She's using a metaphor to justify using the forge. There is no "confirmed connection", nor is nirncrux implied to be his blood.
Rena doesn't mention nirncrux or materials at all in her post-quest dialogue, she just talks about how invigorated she feels after slaying her captors. From an academic perspective, any "inferences" made from nirncrux being Shor's blood are all circumstantial, and have no actual basis in lore; we can't pull sources that sound like they support a point and run with them because we think it sounds right, there actually has to be a connection. We should not take an NPC's words literally 100% of the time, and we cannot infer things based on our own biases regarding existing information. Trying to connect heart stones and nirncrux on the basis of "Shor's blood" is pushing a narrative, which we should not be doing.

Next, regarding Zeb's inquiry on the usage of Lore:Heart Stone: they have the same name, but they are different objects altogether. The page was created for the Dragonborn heart stones, which are not the same thing as nirncrux fashioned into a heartstone. This is an issue of disambiguation.
"Why would an article called Lore:Heart Stone only be about the heart stones from Dragonborn?" Because a nirncrux heartstone and a heart stone are fundamentally two different objects, and thus should not be on the same page. Having a similar name doesn't warrant inclusion on the same article. The city of Vivec and Vivec the Person have the same name, but we don't have their full articles on the same page. Heart Stones are objects from Red Mountain that power an Ash Spawn's "life force". Nirncrux heartstones are chunks of nirncrux being used to empower the Reachmen, kind of like a briar heart seed. They're not the same thing and don't belong together; putting them on the same page implies there's a connection. If you can come up with a note saying something about their function in animating things being kind of similar, I would be receptive to that, but the nirncrux stuff doesn't have anything to do with heart stones, the namesake of the page, and the thing that doesn't have a material like "nirncrux" to precede the name. As it stands, I'm in favor of moving the information to Lore:Nirncrux or a Lore:Bloodforged. Having a similar name is not enough grounds to keep these on the same page. -MolagBallet (talk) 01:34, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Molag's reasoning. The bloodforged stuff should be a note at best, with the bulk of the content on a dedicated page.--Jimeee (talk) 14:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

While I do believe that the Dragoborn Heartstones and Bloodroot Forge Heartstones are different things it is not exactly true that term "Heartstone" is used only in promotional trailers - there is an npc (Filand) that refers to the Heartstones from Bloodroot as Heartstones and those are capitalized

"The earth's beating heart! It thunders day and night, shaping their twisted Heartstones and wicked blades that thirst for blood. Those of us they take to the Forge never return.
Will you spare the others from that fate?"

I'll put at stop to the forge and save who I can.

and

What makes you say that?

"The fruits of the Forge, their Heartstones and weapons, twist them into bloodthirsty monsters whose flesh and blood is stone and fire. They turn out more with each passing day."

Where did this Forge come from? Did the Reachmen create it? Tyrvarion (talk) 14:49, 10 August 2021 (UTC)