Lore talk:Iron Orcs

Subrace

I disagree with the recent change labelling Iron Orcs as a race. They are simply a tribe of Orcs with a separate culture to their brethren. I'm fine leaving the subrace navbox on the bottom of the page but categorising this page under Races rather than Factions is an inaccuracy. I've reverted until a citation can be provided. —⁠Legoless (talk) 09:36, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Iron Orcish origins

Regarding recent changes to the Iron Orcs page, I wanted to present the case for Iron Orcs originating Orsimer. We know that their language is almost identical to Old Orcish. We have Orsimer like Lakhazga gra-Rimat, Gard gro-Wroggin, Forge-Wife Glesh, and several others saying, "steel and stone" almost as invocation, like the Iron Orcs in their worship of stones. Similarly, Ilthag Ironblood, an Iron Orc, named his two welwas Vosh and Rakh, while Vosh Rakh is the name of Trinimac's blade. It seems that the religious traditions of mainstream Orsimer and Iron Orcs overlap in key areas, as if they were once the same but separated over time.

Bargrug mentions that he was told that he some Iron Orcish blood in him, suggesting that Iron Orcs are accepted by other Orsimer as Orsimer, worthy of marriage and capable of interbreeding. They also look Orcish, not like giant goblins or small ogres or anything like that.

The main text on Iron Orcs places them in Craglorn since the Late Merethic Era, and it's not known how long they were there before. This would fit the typical narrative of the Transformation of Trinimac and the creation of Orsimer in the same time period.

It was originally speculated on the page that Iron Orcs might be some of the original inhabitants of the area, and the ones that Topal encountered. I don't think that this makes sense. Firstly, it's not known whether Father of the Niben refers to Orcs as we know them or simply Aldmeri outcasts, and the text says as much. Secondly, despite the claim that it's from Topal's diaries, it's clearly not, it's epic poetry, which is often rife with inaccuracies.

Even if we were to consider Orcs present in early High Rock and Hammerfell to be accurate, these could simply be Orsimer. As shown in Thugbo's Map of Clans, Orsimer sometimes date themselves to having been in Wrothgar and the surrounding territories since the Dawn.

My previous writings were hasty and unsourced. Perhaps we should rewrite their origin with evidence for either side? Though we're not told for certain what the origin of the Iron Orcs is, I do think that there's far more and better evidence for Iron Orcs being Orsimer, and the argument for them not being Orsimer depends on arguments from silence and the use of unclear and unreliable sources. — TheLinguist 9th August 2023