Online talk:Dockyards

No map marker, redux

I removed the note about the docks not having a map marker since that was only the case during beta. However, as of Update 10, it seems that all three docks (Dockyards, Vulkhel Docks and Daggerfall Southern Docks) are having their map markers removed. This means they will no longer be "Explorable Locations" as they will no longer provide Discovery XP. However, I don't think we can just move them to "Unmarked Locations" either, since after this update, they will no longer have names at all; these three locations will just cease to exist, and they should therefore technically not have pages either. As with other similar situations, I assume we will want to keep the information we had on these places, so I have added a disabled parameter to Online Place Summary that we could use to record the change. --Enodoc (talk) 12:16, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

It definitely had no marker at release, since my main discovered it long after completing Bleakrock. I also think we should be a lot more flexible with using the Unmarked label - describing any of those docks as "disabled" is inaccurate when they're clearly still extant. The only thing disabled is the name, and that's a simple technicality which we should disregard for the sake of documentation. See Online:Orzorga's Kitchen (settlement) for an example. —Legoless (talk) 12:38, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Are you sure? When Lurlock created the page, he created it with a map icon, and that was on launch day. You also discover the location immediately when talking to the Prophet, not by going near it. Is it possible you had it bugged, and got Discovery XP a second time?

I do agree that "disabled" seems wrong, as physically those docks will still be there, but the entities called "Dockyards", "Vulkhel Docks" and "Daggerfall Southern Docks" will no longer exist. If we had started documenting locations after Update 10, we wouldn't arbitrarily name the docks separately, we'd just include them in the main pages of Davon's Watch, Vulkhel Guard and Daggerfall. I've agreed before (after some persuasion) that naming unmarked and "unnamed" locations like Orzorga's Kitchen is fine as long as we have an in-game source for the name (Farwatch Tower, Aswala Stables, and Badwater Mine are other examples), but there will be no in-game reference for these names after Update 10, so nothing to draw the names from. To new players, the docks will be indistinguishable from the rest of the city, so us documenting them separately would be confusing. Maybe instead of marking them disabled, a redirect would be better? --Enodoc (talk) 13:03, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm quite positive, because I didn't even go to the docks during beta. Upon release, on the other hand, I explored the dock pretty thoroughly without seeing any marker. I also have a distinct memory of seeing the undiscovered anchor icon, thinking it was a new location but being quite surprised to find out they had added the marker.

I'd be fine with migrating this info to the main city pages for consistency's sake, but in my opinion it would be hideous. City pages are already quite long, and if we have an excuse to split them up slightly then I think we should take that opportunity. Maintaining separate pages would make it easier to document the deprecated info (including the removed name), and it just seems like a good idea considering the apparent importance of these locations (tutorial questline, cake event, even spawn point for AD). The Exploration Location obviously no longer exists, but I'd say there's practical grounds for maintaining these as separate entities. —Legoless (talk) 13:25, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

I looked into it a bit more and it seems the relevant importance has been reduced (this is probably why the markers were removed). On PTS, you once again start on the starter islands after Coldharbour, like you did in beta, so these locations are no longer part of those quests. With regards to the Daggerfall one specifically, that was never relevant to the cake event anyway, as that took place in Daggerfall Harbor District. Also, the boatswain that took you to Stros M'Kai from Daggerfall has been moved to the Harbour District as well, and is now labelled with the anchor Service Pin under "Dock". If the same thing has happened to the others (haven't had time to check yet), then we can move "Vulkhel Docks" to "Dock (Vulkhel Guard)" and "Dockyards" to "Dock (Davon's Watch)", and turn them into "service" place pages rather than "POI" place pages, making a note of their previous status there. All that's left then is Daggerfall Southern Docks, which is completely unmarked and essentially useless now, and we could probably get away with redirecting that to the Daggerfall version of the Spearhead article, since that's the only ship there. --Enodoc (talk) 14:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

All the three related docks are now indeed simply listed as "Dock" with a boatswain service, which can just be listed under Services as you said. I think it's a good idea. Tib (talk) 15:06, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Service pages seem fine, although if we're gonna get rid of the Southern Docks page then I think it would be better to put the info on ON:Daggerfall rather than the Spearhead, since the ship having multiple copies already confuses the matter. —Legoless (talk) 15:54, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

I was just thinking that where they've moved Gilzir to (he's now by the lighthouse at the northern harbour) is actually a really awkward location. If you're doing The Broken Spearhead from Daggerfall (that is still possible), there's an objective to talk to Tumma-Shah on the Spearhead, and with Gilzir up at the lighthouse, those two objectives are now at opposite ends of the city. Also, if you're just arriving from Betnikh, you will appear on the Spearhead with Kaleen. Both of these points, along with the fact that Gilzir has been down at the southern docks for two years, suggests that moving him to the lighthouse is a really daft change. If you're looking to go back to Stros M'kai or Betnikh, you'll look at where you arrived, not the other end of the city. I would encourage people on PTS to put these points forward in /feedback, and say that Gilzir should be moved back to the southern dock, next to the Spearhead. (Then, for our own benefit, we would be able to do the same thing with the page moves for Daggerfall as well.) --Enodoc (talk) 21:43, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, definitely feels like some weird changes to make. —Legoless (talk) 01:33, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Edit Break: One Tamriel

One Tamriel is adding a load more map markers to each of these docks, so the one called "Dock" will no longer be the only one. I'll check the details more later, but I'm thinking the best solution would probably be to move these pages back to the names they had before, to have one page covering all the different transport options. --Enodoc (talk) 10:57, 8 September 2016 (UTC)