Online talk:Foyen Docks Wayshrine

Would it make more sense to link this to the Wayshrine section of Bal Foyen? In many cases the wayshrine for a location is far enough from the location itself that it might not show up on the location page. --Swordmage (talk) 01:25, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Further investigation: I notice that there are pages that use the places template when listing wayshrines, so we may want a real places page for this. --Swordmage (talk) 03:09, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

We had a bit of a discussion about this on IRC, and we are currently only creating pages for those wayshrines that are not connected to another place (such as Sandy Grotto Wayshrine, which is in the middle-of-nowhere on Stros M'Kai, and Bleakrock Wayshrine, which is too central to the whole island to be connected just to the village). This one, for example, is connected to Bal Foyen Dockyards, so when the Dockyards page is expanded, full details will be added there. Also, only those wayshrines that actually have pages are listed using the {{Place Link}}, the others are just formatted to look as though they are. --Enodoc (talk) 09:50, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Will we have a template to handle the details of these wayshrine links (like the icon, standard formatting, and map link magic (if appropriate)? --Swordmage (talk) 14:47, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Yeah, we can use the description template. Should work fine. Might have to tweak it slightly for icon use, but yes. Jeancey (talk) 15:26, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

I guess my question is still: if we are going to have a file per wayshrine anyway (for the redirect) and will have to jump through hoops (on multiple other pages) to duplicate the format and information that the Place Link template would display if the wayshrine page actually had data on it, why not just make all the wayshrine files place pages? --Swordmage (talk) 16:34, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Because the only importance for most wayshrines is the place they are next to. There is nothing else that anyone would need to know besides the location. I'm not sure I understand your question.... what information do you think we need? There is no jumping through hoops, there's no problems. There is just the description template. We need nothing else. Jeancey (talk) 16:54, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

The description template just stores the description of a page in the DB. What we need is a template to replace the Place Link table formatting that would present the correct icon, and then we would need to be sure we include the appropriate information (the description and mapname) on each of the 3 or more pages that hold information about each waypoint (the waypoint page, the zone page, the place page, and, perhaps, any pages that would benefit from "nearest waypoint" information), not to mention needing to make sure all of those spots get updated when changing the description/mapname (if you can't tell, I am a firm believer in only having one master copy of any piece of data when possible). --Swordmage (talk) 17:57, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

We've been working on this over the last half-hour or so; Place Link now works as we've defined the description and icon on the redirect page. Stros M'Kai now uses this format. --Enodoc (talk) 18:01, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

(←) (edit conflict) We already fixed it. Using the Place Link template will show the description and the icon on all the pages you mentioned. We don't need to put the placelink template on every page, just the zone page. We can also add map information if you like, but I don't think it's needed. They can just use the link to the location, which is probably what they are looking for anyway. The location will also clearly show the wayshrine nearby. Jeancey (talk) 18:02, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

This makes much more sense (I made the mistake of believing the Wiki help pages that said that nothing but category entries would work on a redirect page so I didn't think what you did was possible; thus I was totally missing what you were proposing -- I am usually not this obtuse).

One more thing though: there will be times when we use a straight link to a wayshrine (such as in the walkthrough for a quest) and will follow it to a place page that has no wayshrine info on it. I think that a wayshrine section really needs to be on those place pages (the redirect could, then, actually point to that wayshrine section header). --Swordmage (talk) 18:17, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

At what point would we need a wayshrine link where a link to just the location itself won't do? Jeancey (talk)

Something in a walkthrough such as "find the ghost of XXXX standing just north of the Othrenis wayshrine". This is a real situation outside of Davon's Watch. There is also a quest NPC that is easiest to describe as being east of that same wayshrine in a camp past the first bridge. And oh, by the way, that wayshrine is east of the grave yard for which it is named and past a hill so directions from the graveyard would be much more complex. --Swordmage (talk) 18:51, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

(edit conflict) You can use the wayshrine as the landmark, and then just link Othrenis. Same thing we do for other non-page landmarks such as "find the naked Nord standing near the bridge east of Narsis." The bridge is the landmark, but the link will go to Narsis, since the bridge obviously doesn't have a page. Jeancey (talk) 18:59, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

True one could always do that for the non-page wayshrines; however, the wayshrines are sometimes page landmarks and sometimes non-page landmarks and that requires authors who are not particularly interested in the optimizations done to avoid making pages for all wayshrines to know whether or not the particular wayshrine they are interested in is a non page landmark. Isn't it just easier to have the information in places where people expect to find it (at the place the link points).

Another reason for having the wayshrine info on the page is just the problem of finding out that there is actually a wayshrine for the location and where to run to get to the wayshrine from the location if it is some distance away and you haven't found it yet. For instance the Deleyn's Mill wayshrine is a fair distance north of the village and it isn't even obvious that there is a wayshrine for the village when you are standing in the center (you first encounter the village heading east out of Daggerfall). --Swordmage (talk) 19:22, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

The only reason that places like, for example, Grimfield, don't have information on their wayshrine is because it hasn't been added yet. When it has been, the redirect will be altered to link to it. In fact, I'll set up the links in anticipation. --Enodoc (talk) 19:26, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Also, in game, if you are anywhere near a location, the icon pops up on your map. This is different from previous games and makes it much easier to discover locations once you know the general area it is in. Jeancey (talk) 19:30, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

Good Enodoc, I think we are thinking the same way.

And yes, Jeancey, I agree; however, the problem I am trying to solve is knowing the general area it is in. --Swordmage (talk) 19:38, 27 March 2014 (GMT)

(←) For Othrenis Wayshrine, the general area would be the location Othrenis. All wayshrines are close enough to the locations attached to them that if you go to that location, the Wayshrine icon will pop up on the map. For any wayshrines not near enough or linked to a specific location, those will get full pages. Jeancey (talk) 19:42, 27 March 2014 (GMT)