Lore talk:Avenger

I will be restoring the Avenger's lore page. There was no precedent for the deletion of this evoked entity and the scarcity of information on the entity is irrelevant to the fact that revered, evoked, worshipped, or divine beings of any sort whatsoever are always granted a lore page. If the belief that there is not enough evidence to refer to them as a deity is present then so be it, I will adjust the wording to entity. A discussion should have been had before swiftly deleting the page and I will not back down to an administrator aggressively targeting my King Edward edits. I am confidently and correctly restoring it. Dcking20 (talk) 04:06, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Dcking, this is not some sort of vengeance against King Edward. This page both isn't of a deity (various other exclamations such as For the Empire, where it clearly isn't a deity, or ones where the name being invoked is a separate entity with a real name, such as By the Mother, where Almalexia is being invoked but Mother isn't a new deity), and even if it was, being invoked a single time is clearly not notable enough for lore. One person invoking one thing isn't notable. I could say "By the Potato", that doesn't make Potato a deity. Without any evidence of a deity being involved, assuming that one exists IS original research and should not be on the wiki, even for a short period of time. You do not have a monopoly on lore, and just because you are convinced of something doesn't make it so. Two people have reverted your edits on this matter, and that's just who has seen them. I will be deleting the page, as I would any page based entirely on original research. If you wish to provide evidence on this talk page of other uses where it is clear that a deity is being invoked, feel free. Jeancey (talk) 04:25, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

This page did not meet the standards listed by UESPWiki:Lore. In particular:

"Original Research: Original research is strongly disfavored in UESP articles. Even if a series of statements can logically be put together to reach a conclusion, that conclusion does not belong on UESP unless it has already been stated elsewhere (in valid source material).

"A core goal of the UESP wiki is to summarize what's already known, like any encyclopedia, rather than to come up with new information.

"Exceptions to this rule may be possible, but those exceptions need to be discussed on the talk page beforehand."

The page content consisting of:

"The Avenger is a deity who has been evoked by the likes of the Chimer King Moraelyn. Nothing is known of them beyond their mere existence and the fact that the context in which they were evoked was one of anger."

Which is based off of this passage:

"Moraelyn leaped up. "By the Avenger, I will go back and wring the vixen's neck! The human--", he bit off the insult, but his red eyes flamed rage; his muscles swelled and his hair stood on end. "You do not look half-elven. I never met your mother until four years after your conception. Roane, it seems, cannot decide which lie she wishes to use. But incest! May Kel strike her down if I may not." The tall elf paced furiously about the room, lithe as a Khajiit, hand fondling his sword hilt. The platform swayed and dipped."

Within the two sentences making up this article, original research is present. There is nothing stating this being is a deity, that is not a conclusion that can be stated without assumptions, and the singular citation referencing them does not allow for even a series of statements to be used to draw this conclusion. No attempt at seeking an exception to this rule was made, as this talk page was only made after the page was made. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 04:28, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I will be restoring the page again and will keep pushing back at the attempt at swift deletion of the page without allowing for discussion on the topic. I changed the wording from deity to entity to satisfy any concerns over original research that the being that was invoked was a god. Every other entity/deity mentioned in King Edward appropriately has either their own individual lore page or entry in Gods. Similar treatment is correctly given to various entities/deities that are otherwise unknown found in the Arena and Daggerfall race exclamations. I will now link to examples to show the overwhelming precedence of this in lore space and the unjust nature of this pushback against the Avenger. Kel, Darvak, Cassimoran, Rat-God etc etc.

Now what I have imperatively proven by giving several examples of which their are many more, is that the precedent for giving lore entries for these scarcely substantiated upon, evoked entities absolutely exists and was not unique to this instance of the Avenger here. Now to suit the two of your arguments perhaps you will say most of these should be purged as well. But that would have to go to *DISCUSSION* as there is clearly an established understanding here on the wiki across multiple editors making multiple edits that these evoked, often times only one line entities are absolutely qualified to have lore entries on the basis of being revered to the point of being evoked in casual conversation. Again, this is not unique to the Avenger and the Avenger has no more or less information present on him than any of the other lore entries I’ve linked. Dcking20 (talk) 04:53, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Rat-God and Kel are good entries. Rat-God is obviously a god per their name, and Kel is used in the phrase 'May Kel strike her down' which is a phrase of divinity. Darvak is only used in 'Crused Darvak' which is no indicator of divinity. 'Blade of Cassimoran' is the only mention of Cassimoran, which also makes no mention of godhood. The same goes for the Avenger, who is only used in 'By the Avenger', which is ambiguous to if it even refers to a person or not, making the entity clause original research. Avenger could just as easily refer to a rock or constellation rather than a human, let alone a god. Mindtrait0r (talk) 07:33, 24 December 2023 (UTC)