User talk:99stars/Efficient Underleveling

Userfy Request

"Page is largely subjective and contains questionable tips such as not leveling Luck"

The article points out the peculiarities of Oblivion's leveling system when applied to an efficiently leveled character that has already attained 100 in its relevant skills and Attributes, and discusses how to efficiently (i.e., in the least amount of levels) max out (and fully overmax) a character in order to avoid those pitfalls.

I am not sure see which content is considered subjective, since it is basically all math, but I am perfectly willing to address the issue if it is pointed out to me.

As for not leveling luck being a questionable tip:

Luck only even influences the effectiveness of skills, and it cannot raise their effective level above 100. Therefore, once a character achieves 100 in a skill, 50 Luck or 100 Luck will make no difference.

Once the character has each and every skill at 100, having Luck at 100 will be meaningless. The player spent 50 levels raising an Attribute that now has no effect whatsoever on the game. Is that incorrect?

I am always willing to trade my ideas for better ones, but so far I remain of my opinion...

99stars 07:11, 12 March 2010 (UTC)99stars

I'm not the one who put the request on the page, but I think the main issue here is that the tips on the page will only apply to a very small handful of characters. If you look at the assumptions made in the Basics section, they're very limiting assumptions, where pages like Efficient Leveling can apply to most character builds. ‒ Robin Hood↝Talk 09:44, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

First, luck does have an effect even after the player's skills are maxed. As noted on the Luck page, arena betting and daedric banishing are two definite cases. Second, and more importantly, luck plays a big part during the leveling up phase. You can get more powerful spells and potions if your luck is high, as well as dealing more damage.

The major point, though, is that you have to follow so many rules. In addition to RH's point about the "Basics" section, you've got to have Security as a major skill, join the Knights of the Nine and the Dark Brotherhood and remain a vampire. There are so many constraints it leaves only one way to play the game, and frankly that's not an option that's going to interest most people. rpeh •T•C•E• 12:06, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Since some concerns overlap, I will reply to both at once. Do please forgive me if I forget to address one of your points, and be so kind as to raise it again.

True, RH, the basic assumptions are, in fact, restrictive; I am, however, fairly certain efficiently leveled characters will often satisfy them once they reach level 25+.

To clarify, the basic assumptions about the character can also be restated as follows.

Upon reaching level 25, the character:

- has skill level 100 in his armor of choice (physical or magical)

- has skill level 100 in his weapon of choice (physical or magical)

- has Attribute level 100 in Endurance as well as the Attribute that helps most in his weapon focus

- has skill level 100 in at least one support skill (Alchemy was chosen as it is arguably the most flexible one, but Alteration, Restoration and Destruction can usually be used instead)

This seems like something many level 25 characters will have, seeing how:

- It only makes sense to max out your defenses, whatever they may be, and by level 25 you should be able to do so

- Your main weapon will usually level up its corresponding Attribute (Destruction is an exception, but magic-oriented characters will try to max their Magicka anyway)

- Attributes leveled up with the 5/5/5 strategy will usually max out somewhere between level 25 and 30, depending on the Birthsign and the player's leveling choices, which means "two Attributes at 100" is not an unreasonable assumption, and you want to max out Endurance first when leveling efficiently

Also, I should point out that I am talking about the planned development of a future character, rather than an existing one. Actually, that part needs editing anyway, since I found some factual inaccuracies (i.e., some leveled lists max at level 30): I will have to rewrite it.

That said, the purpose of this article is to explain how to offset the main disadvantage of underleveling (the unavailability of higher-tier equipment), while retaining its main advantage (enemies that do not grow in power after the player no longer can), by using a variant of Efficient Leveling to attain the highest possible Attributes and Skills at the minimum possible level. That requires excluding Luck from the list of Attributes that you are going to increase, or else you will be forced to gain several more levels.

There are, indeed, several more "forced choices" (such as, having to take Security as a Major Skill) in this approach: if the goal is to have all Skills at the highest value, while at the same time keeping the lowest possible character level, some choices will be made for you - not by me, but by what is available in the game. That doesn't mean that I think it's the best choice, or even that I like it: it's just that my math tells me that it's the only choice, if your goal is to max out all Attributes and Skills at the lowest possible level.

Of course, if that is not your goal, this article is not what you are looking for, just like an article on Restoration is not what you are looking for if your goal is to summon a Golden Saint. Still, that doesn't mean that an article about Restoration doesn't belong here...

Now, rpeh, you argue that many people may not want to follow the path outlined in my article, since it basically forces you to play in one of very few possible ways, and they might dislike all of those. You know what? You are absolutely right: that's exactly why I think there is value in knowing what those ways are: that you may decide whether or not you want to play like that.

Of course, the article's focus puts it outside the interest of casual players, who will do just fine with Efficient Leveling, and may not even want to get to level 25 (or 30): its target audience are players who want to see how powerful a character can get when fully maxed out, without ending up with a (comparatively) weak character due to excessive leveling.

While this is a significantly smaller audience than that of Efficient Leveling, I believe it would be about the same size as the Under Leveling crowd: after all, I am trying to find a way for them to have their cake (weak monsters, great skills) and eat it too (get the best equipment in the game and the highest Attributes for their character)...

Again, I should point out that "more efficient" doesn't mean "better", and "most efficient" doesn't mean "best": "best" is subjective, but as long as there is agreement on the starting point, the goal, and the metrics to measure progress and cost, "most efficient" is entirely objective.

In this case, the starting point is a newly built character, the goal is to max out as many Skills and Attributes as possible, and the "cost" is the enemies gain in the process, which is proportional to the character's level.

Therefore, the strategy that allows to achieve the absolute maximum values in all Attributes and Skills at the lowest possible level is "the most efficient".

It's not the absolute "best" one, nor is it the one that everyone should follow, just as neither Under Leveling nor Efficient Leveling are the "best" way to beat the game. They are simply options for players to choose from.

Finally, you argue that Luck does have side effects other than increasing skill effectiveness: I would counter that those effects are minor, but that is not really an answer.

Still, while that would be a reason to extend the article, it doesn't look like a reason to userfy it. In fact, if you think that would help, I can add the details of a 5/5/1 leveling strategy (which still overmaxes everything) to the article, thereby increasing its scope and the number of people interested in it.

99stars 19:15, 12 March 2010 (UTC)