Lore talk:Dragon Alphabet

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[edit] is the sample text wrong?

in the first line of the sample text(in the dragon font) it appears to be missing the letter "n" at the end of the first "dovakiin." is that how its supposed to be? or just a typo? 98.244.13.11 06:16, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

It looks like a typo - the Gameinformer post that this is copied from does not have that typo. I also found another typo, but it appears to be the only one. On the last line it says "DIION" when it should say "DIIVON" (DIIVON instead of DIION) (I apologize for the big letters, any smaller and it's hard to read.)
I'm going to work on a new version of this image, without the typos. Thanks for catching this! • JATalk 17:50, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
Okay, fixed it. There shouldn't be any more typos now. • JATalk 18:17, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Dragon Language font in .png format?

I see there is a Dragon Language font, but I'd like a high quality .png version of the dragon alphabet letters, if possible? Just one .png file, transparent background, with the symbols lined up alphabetically (as they are on the Lore page), would be perfect. It'd be an excellent resource, honestly! :3 And I will also take this opportunity to say I love UESP! The combined efforts of all the editors makes it a gorgeous and easy-to-navigate website. — Unsigned comment by 120.159.70.26 (talk) at 02:23 on 31 March 2012

May I ask what for? It exists currently as a font you can download and use in any program that supports fonts. Meaning that it's vector-based and thus can be scaled as large or as small as you want without any loss of quality. Making a .png (or .jpg or .gif, etc.) of it would limit it to that size and no larger, as you can't scale up raster graphics without pixellation. Not sure what the point of that would be. --TheRealLurlock Talk 11:52, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Well, it's mainly because my imaging program can't process vectors (unbelievable, but true!) and it's handy (for specific projects among other general purposes) to have around. That, and I'm not sure how to install fonts (I'm using a new PC).
I know, it's an odd request, haha.
I didn't sign my post last time, I forgot (sorry!). >.<
I'll just put my username as Nat for now. 101.169.42.150 00:48, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
There is indeed such a file in the game date (textures/dungeons/dragonrunealphabet.dds), I uploaded it as File:SR-misc-Dragonrunealphabet.png. Like the font it shows a C. Apart from that, there are a few minor details that are different from the font letters, like where the scratches start. --Alfwyn (talk) 21:03, 15 October 2012 (GMT)

[edit] Dragon font and file name

This page doesn't display the dragon font linked on it. I suspect it's because the linked file calls the font Dragon_script, while the page code refers to Dragonscript. The same goes for the page Skyrim:Dragon_Language:_Myth_no_More--121.98.80.77 20:39, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

[edit] You must know by now.

Dragons don't have hands. They have no ability to write by clawing at surfaces and largely lack the ability to claw at all. In fact the only dragon met in game that wishes to write a Word for you uses the same ability as the Greybeards to project the Word into existence.

If the written from of Dragonic is biased on the writings of a clawed people it would have to be one of the clawed mortal races. — Unsigned comment by 66.8.149.186 (talk) at 23:16 on 5 October 2012‎

I can clearly see claws on that image, both on wings and legs. --Alfwyn (talk) 23:22, 5 October 2012 (GMT)
The wings are in no way ever used to scratch, and don't bend in that direction. The feet do have claws that face forward, but to write say a Word Wall the dragon would have to hump it. — Unsigned comment by 66.8.149.186 (talk) at 23:52 on 5 October 2012‎
What's your point? The letters are said to have been written with dragon claws, end of discussion. The game models don't really play a factor. —Legoless (talk) 22:34, 15 October 2012 (GMT)
That is a silly thing to say. See with your eyes or don't. But my point is valid. — Unsigned comment by 98.150.201.62 (talk) at 09:53 on 20 October 2012
Point is, the statement in the article has a reference. Statements about what a dragon can or cannot do in way of scratching are just speculation. --Alfwyn (talk) 10:33, 20 October 2012 (GMT)
The article is written by a person with the ability to see dragons first hand, and as you know not all the in game books are 100% accurate. If the same book spoke of the feathers of the werewolf you would have to compare the in game representation to the second hand lore book. — Unsigned comment by 98.150.204.177 (talk) at 23:27 on 31 October 2012 (GMT)
Game limitations. If the lore tells us that dragons write with their dewclaw, then they write with their dewclaw. This is the lore article. We have a direct source for the information, albeit an out-of-game, pre-release, semi-official source. We can't just discredit the information because of some inane analysis of the in-game claw models. In fact, I'm not even entirely sure what your original point is. Just because you never see a dragon claw in Skyrim doesn't mean they can't. Do you ever see an orc urinate in-game? If a book says they can urinate, are we to ignore this information simply because all orcs in Skyrim have loincloths stitched to their thighs? This is a non-issue, and the information isn't going to be removed. —Legoless (talk) 03:25, 1 November 2012 (GMT)
No dragon in game tells us how the Nords got the written dragonic, or how they would write if they felt the need to. All writing in the book in question is not guaranteed to be accurate. — Unsigned comment by 98.150.204.177 (talk) at 09:34 on 1 November 2012

() We have been granted sources that this is how they write, provide another source to disprove it beyond, "they can't" because they can't, or stop arguing for something that clearly isn't going to happen. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:04, 1 November 2012 (GMT)

No we have speculation. Only if you care too look at what is there will you see anything. We even see a dragon write a word in game, but you insist that they don't do that at all. Part of the main story no less.
No one has proven in any way that they ever use any other form of writing, or even tries to acknowledge what happens in game. Post an in game or official source, or pics of it happening. Or reedit the page to clarify. — Unsigned comment by 98.150.205.41 (talk) at 19:49 on 1 December 2012‎
What's more no dragon in game has three parallel claws. We see a dragon, and the Greybeards write words in what can only be thought of as a traditional style. Can anyone find a way or reason to dispute this or, to not include it in the main article? — Unsigned comment by 98.150.140.206 (talk) at 18:42 on 3 December 2012‎
Alright. Let's get this straight. I believe the Lore Book being referenced is "Dragon Language: Myth No More" by Hela Thrice-Versed which states "One can almost envision a majestic dragon using his great, sharp talons to carve the symbols into the stone itself. And a human witness - possibly even a thrall or servant - learning, observering"
Yes. One can imagine. Not that the author knew or witnessed, just was daydreaming about dragons using their claws to write and humans 'observering' (i don't know if the misspell is in the book itself or just on this wiki).
The author goes on to say "And so you see, the ancient dragon language is, indeed, myth no more. It existed. But better yet, it still exists, and probably will until the end of time, thanks to the ancient Nords and their construction of these many "word walls." "
Yep. Dragons were not the stone masons and carvers. They didn't do it. In the Lore
Now let's lok at the game itself. We see a dragon write in the course of the main storyline when we learn from Paarthurnax. He speaks it into existence. That the only documentation of actual dragon writing and not humanoid masonry — Unsigned comment by 98.150.205.41 (talk) at 05:38 on 3 March 2013
Once again this is not a source disproving the actual verifiable one given to us by no less that Todd Howard "The idea was, how would the dragons write or scratch this language in the stone or on the ground? Everything is done with the three talons." and the Dewclaw. Todd Howard, producer of the game and the language itself has said it is written by the Dragons themselves. All that has been provided so far to counter this, is that we don't see it happen in any games, and that it isn't documented in any in-game either. There are no sources that say otherwise, so what are the counter-arguments based on, speculation. Verified source beats speculation any day of the week, come back when there is evidence to the contrary please. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 05:48, 3 March 2013 (GMT)
The written Chinese language features many curving lines and delicate strokes. Compare this to the Roman alphabet we use, which consists of generally straight lines and angles. (Even more so when the Romans used it - 'O's looked like diamonds and 'U's looked like 'V's, etc.) Why is this? Well, when the Chinese were first developing their written language, they did so using brush and ink, which are naturally suited to such curves and strokes. The Romans, on the other hand, were mostly carving the letters, either with a stylus and slate, or chisel and stone. With this method, curves are hard to do well, so they used a lot of straight lines whenever possible. These alphabets persisted to modern day (with a few modifications), and even though the majority of writing in either language is now done with either printing presses or appearing on a computer display, the same shapes are still used, curvy or straight. My point is that the dragon language may not always be written by dragons using their claws, but the shapes it uses can still originate from claw-writing. (The fact that many of the Word Walls are in interior locations to small for a dragon to get into supports that.) Just like I didn't use a hammer and chisel to write this post using the Roman alphabet, but it still uses the same characters, and the Chinese don't always write with a brush and ink anymore. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 14:18, 3 March 2013 (GMT)

() The origin of an idea and the execution in game have no relation. Orcs for example do not originate in the Elder Scrolls, but it might be considered odd to have one fresh out of the Lord of the Rings books or folklore in game. We are cheating ourselves if we ignore what the game itself presents to us. — Unsigned comment by 98.150.205.41 (talk) at 03:55 on 9 March 2013

If in game books and events are not ever to be used as lore, then what are we doing here? — Unsigned comment by Honney Boy (talkcontribs) at 18:51 on 9 March 2013
I'm not sure if I understand... which non-fiction books are not being used as lore? There are no books that say that the alphabet wasn't created by dragons. There isn't even anything that says it was created by humans. Jeancey (talk) 01:56, 10 March 2013 (GMT)
But you see a dragon write in game. By shouting. Not imaginary hands or awkward claw use, just shouting. Yet this is not considered part of the game because someone found an interview that is in no way connected to any person playing the game or reading it' books. How such an event can be ignored because of an allegedly more valid nongame source is beyond this simple boy. I've seen it happen. You've seen it happen. People even exploit an glitch with the event. Yet this page refuses to even verify that the even occurs. — Unsigned comment by Honney Boy (talkcontribs) at 19:30 on 9 March 2013
That isn't a dragon writing... that is a dragon making words appear in the air. It is completely different from writing, and it is NOT writing in any way shape or form. Blowing a ring of smoke out of your mouth does not mean that you are drawing a circle. There is no evidence to show that dragons did not create the alphabet, and there is no evidence to show that a dragon writing in the dirt with its claws would be awkward. Jeancey (talk) 02:46, 10 March 2013 (GMT)
Dragon anatomy does not match the dragon alphabet. They do not have three parallel claws for example, not even all of them have a dewclaw. There is no evidence of them ever needing to keep traditional written records of any kind, as they are ageless and seem to have perfect recall of events that occur even thousands of years ago. The form of the language that we see on word walls was likely derived by the Tongues, and the structure of the language was likely determined by Akatosh who is the dragons creator. Words written in the air, smoke signals, smoke rings, twigs left on the ground, shallow carvings on trees, knots left in fabric, tattoos, etc are all forms of writing as a written expression that does not need to exist in any form of permanency. All you see on your screen is pixels made to dance, but you could not argue that this is not written. Pretending otherwise is unbecoming.— Unsigned comment by Honney Boy (talkcontribs) at 20:35 on 9 March 2013
It is writing. That doesn't mean it was written. To Write: "To form letters, words or symbols on a surface in order to communicate." On a surface is writing something. Writing: "The process of representing a language with symbols or letters." Just because it is writing, doesn't mean that he WAS writing. There is a big difference there. They might not even need three parallel claws. It still doesn't negate the fact that a developer of the series says, specifically, that dragons created the alphabet by writing with their claws. All else that you have said is speculation or incorrect. We can only use verifiable information here, such as a developer stating something. Jeancey (talk) 03:43, 10 March 2013 (GMT)
actual source > speculation. why is this silly topic even being debated? Dawn (talk) 04:01, 10 March 2013 (GMT)

() The dev only said what his inspiration was, what we see in the game is what is. Writing was written. On a wall. A stone wall. Your love of this dev does not make his vision the only way to look at the world. Nor does it make his vision exactly what we see in game. This is not a source. It is at best an anecdote of how the game was made and cannot be thought of as an authoritative guide as to what happens in the game. We have to live with what we have, not what he wanted, or what any dev or designer wanted. This is the way life works. Harry Houdini wanted to prove that magic doesn't exist. Pavlov wanted to study dog saliva. No one wanted to invent the slinky. We need to look at the game itself, not repeat the ideas or intentions of others.

What I see, and what cannot be ignored, is a dragon writing the dragon language. Perhaps they all write that way, even! You might also note that dragons in concept art were more like traditional dragons of Europe and less like wyverns. They had hands, but that did not make the final cut of the game. Or should we simply pretend that everything done in concept exist in game?— Unsigned comment by Honney Boy (talkcontribs) at 21:23 on 9 March 2013

This is moot point anyway. There is no clear consensus to change it, and plenty of consensus to keep it as it is. No change will be made to the page regarding this matter. Jeancey (talk) 04:29, 10 March 2013 (GMT)
So the capital of Washington state is Washington DC. I understand. Popular notion must be the only truth. The world is flat. The internet is reality. Writing only matters if it's permanent, just like the internet. The sun moves around the Earth, what was made in seven days. I understand. Reality means nothing. We need everyone to agree that writing is writing, not writing. Or it would just be writing!— Unsigned comment by Honney Boy (talkcontribs) at 21:35 on 9 March 2013
So, according to you, Honney Boy, your opinion is on par with verified scientific facts, and everybody else's is superstitious nonsense. I hope you do realize that in-game dragon physiology is dictated by the graphics engine, not by real-life considerations such as the feasibility of the creature being able to make marks with its claws in stone, like the Executive Producer of the game stated was the intent. I think you've made your case as well as you can, but consensus is not with you. Degenerating into sarcasm will only harm others' opinion of you. --Xyzzy Talk 05:22, 10 March 2013 (GMT)
I can take my finger and write in the sand. I can also take a stick and write in the sand, or a pen on paper. Couldn't a dragon both be able to shout to write and write with claws? Additionally, couldn't word walls have been written on the ground and then lifted? Or, is it also possible that the word walls were not written by dragons, but by Nords; but the dragons invented the language by writing on the ground in stone with their claws? As for having three parallel claws, it's not necessary--the lines in the letters aren't all parallel. Not all dragons have a dewclaw, but they could certainly write without one, maybe with a bit more effort.
Let's be nice, everyone. Vely►t►e 05:28, 10 March 2013 (GMT)
(edit conflict) In-game books are not necessarily taken to be truth—usually they are, but not always. Some books are wrong in-game, just as in real life. In fact, there are in-game books that contradict one another, again, just as in real life. In this case, the book is clearly written by someone who has never seen a dragon, and she says herself that someone else wrote about dragons writing with their claws. Her opinion is unsubstantiated. If a developer said that they envisioned dragons writing with their claws, and no other developer has stated anything to the contrary, then that's what I would think we should go with. For all we know, that very same developer wrote the in-game book that "disproves" dragon writing, just as a joke. Robin Hood  (talk) 05:31, 10 March 2013 (GMT)
My only hope is that the facts of events that must happen in game to progress though the main sotryline be taken as events that happen in game. I just don't see why the popularity of the idea, or comments of anyone have an impact on these events. Yet those are the factors I'm facing. What is the reason we don't portray in game events that happen as they happened?— Unsigned comment by Honney Boy (talkcontribs) at 23:24 on 9 March 2013

() Of course in-game events are documented. However, just because a dragon writes with their voice does not mean they can't have written with their claws. Vely►t►e 06:33, 10 March 2013 (GMT)

Not here. And any attempt to give context to the idea is met with being told that it's not popular enough to document.— Unsigned comment by Honney Boy (talkcontribs) at 23:48 on 9 March 2013
Well, what exactly is it you're proposing to add or change? This topic started out with the idea that it was impossible for dragons to write with their claws. That's what I believe we've all thought you're saying. Now, you seem to be saying that all you want is to document that they can also write with their voice. Perhaps a little clarification is necessary here. Robin Hood  (talk) 08:09, 10 March 2013 (GMT)

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