Lore talk:Fourth Era

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Contents 1 Year/Era Variance & Other Possible Edits 2 Malacath was a mortal 3 Deleted items 4 4th era!...or no?... 5 Suggestions: 6 Death of mannimarco 7 Umbriel? 8 Third or Fourth Era?

[edit] Year/Era Variance & Other Possible Edits

As in my other comment about year variance, (view it by clicking here) I think the time of the events involving Sheogorath should be removed or changed to better reflect the possibilities of players since you can easily complete the SI questline before the main one. Also, Uriel's death didn't really mark the end of the 3rd Era, Martin's death, or (personally) the end of the Oblivion crisis, the Dragonfires, and the Amulet of Kings did. If there is no way to go about this that suits the needs and preferences of the wiki, I think it's OK to leave it how it is, or if there is another reason why it needs to stay as-is, please respond stating why.

I say it should not be changed, only put in as a subnote that it MAY have happened in 3rd era 433, but most debates state that it was AFTER the defeat of Menrunes Dagon.--Juz 12:07, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

I don't see why this has to be in the wiki at all. Other than in Martin's final monologue and Emeror Uriel's introduction, no mention is ever made to the Era changing. Additionally, in Martin and Uriel's little speeches, the connotations in their talk about the Eras is certainly not definite. Besides I think if the devs wanted the era to change after the Main quest, or at any other time, they would have added a script to do so. Perhaps in the next ES game but i think it is a bit early now.

One edit I think needs to be made is the last part in which the player is called the first mortal to sit on the throne. We have no evidence to suggest, at that point, the player is still "mortal". Jygallag even stated it was uncertain whether or not the player was a mortal or a god. Even then, he mentions the player may "grow to his position", possibly implying that, although the player may be less then a god now, he may become a god and/or (depending on your theories on the daedra) a true daedric prince. Also note that Sheogorath himself says that he does not know if a mortal cannot become a daedric prince. Finally, Dyus states the player is going through or going to go through apotheosis, or the raising to a divine status. Given the uncertainties surrounding the nature of the player upon becoming Sheogorath, it seems prudent that the final part of the last entry for the 4th era stating the player is the first mortal to sit on the throne of madness be removed or at the very least edited to reflect the uncertainty. Ideally, it should be changed to something along the lines of "The Player becomes the new Sheogorath" as that much is indisputable.

[edit] Malacath was a mortal

Where are you getting this? Malacath was Trinimac and an Aedra. It is physically impossible for a mortal to be and Daedric Prince since they are et'ada, but I will not contest your edit because Arden-Sul may have been the Sheogorath we saw in SI, just as the player was. There is a slight difference between entity and sphere that isn't well understood. Temple-Zero 09:54, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

I didn't have enough space in my edit summary to explain fully and since roughly the same edit was reverted some months back, I didn't bother to expand. The main reason for reverting is discussed above (we don't know if the player is mortal or not), but the point about Malacath's mortality is one that was discussed a while back. Basically, if I remember correctly, there was some confusion about whether Mauloch (the hero defeated at the Battle of Dragon Wall) = Mauloch (Malacath). Add that to the Gortwog's heretical view about Trinimac and Malacath being separate entities and the possibility of the apotheosis of Mauloch came up. Yes, it's probably not true but the undo is still valid anyway. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 12:32, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

Also, this article is just supposed to provide a minimal summary of the events. Whether or not the player is the first mortal to take a daedric throne is really not a crucial piece of information for a minimal summary. Ultimately, the blurb should link to an article which provides more complete information -- but as with most wiki projects, it hasn't been done yet ;) Speaking of unfinished wiki projects, I'm also trying to put together some guidelines for the lore namespace. One that I'm going to propose is that overview articles, such as Fourth Era and Third Era, should not include any contested details. In my opinion, if there is any uncertainty about a detail, then it should be moved to the full article (where links and more complete discussion are possible), and either deleted from the overview or rephrased to be neutral. --Nephele^Talk 14:20, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

As I said, I agreed with the editor's action, I was just intrigued by the summary. Terms describing SI are usually shoehorned. "Wear the Mantle of a God." <--- prime perpetrator

[edit] Deleted items

• The Feud between the Fighters Guild and the Blackwood Company ends in the Fighters Guild's favor, after rigourous investigations by the current Champion Modryn Oreyn and the new Master indicated that the Blackwood Company was involved in shady business and employed questionable tactics when completing contracts.
• An Elder Scroll is stolen from the Imperial Palace by a member of the Thieves Guild.
• Count Corvus Umbranox of Anvil reappears and retakes the throne of Anvil.
• A traitor in the Dark Brotherhood manipulates their newest member in killing of most of the Black Hand.
• A floating island appeared in Niben bay, on which a door to the Shivering Isles was opened by Sheogorath in his search for a champion.

I've moved these because they're far too unimportant for inclusion on either this or the Third Era page. We don't include the minutiae of the mages guild quests for Daggerfall, Morrowind or anything else. I made an exception with the KotN, because they are an organisation with far more relevance to Lore. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 12:43, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

Mannimarco's entry might be worth putting back in - the character had significant relevance outside of Oblivion. (He was in Daggerfall as well.) I believe Hannibal Traven's name came up a few times in Morrowind as well. (As well as Chancellor Occato.) Agreed on the rest though - nothing extremely lore-significant about those. However, Mannimarco probably belongs in the Third Era, not the Fourth. My take on things is that all of the Oblivion quests prior to the expansions should be regarded as taking place prior to the end of the Main Quest, which would be the event that marks the end of the Third Era. Even though it's possible to complete the Main Quest prior to the individual faction quests, it seems like the MQ should really be regarded as the "end of the game", while the others are just side-shows that occur before that. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 12:54, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

I too believe Mannimarco's entry should be put in. The defeat of the most powerful mage is definately something of note.--Vespian ^Talk 5:44, 14 April (EDT)

I agree. It's the resolution of a very long character arc, whether you think it's lackluster or not.Temple-Zero 17:00, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Okay, I've put that one back, although I think the timeline would benefit from some kind of explanation as to how this is the same person (see the full article on Mannimarco). I still don't think the others should be there and will remove them if re-added. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 08:45, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

I do think the Stolen elder scroll is worth mentioning... It is unpreceeded. And I think that it does have some relevance to lore. Besides, if we are deleting the entry about umbranox reappearing, maybe we should delete the entry about him vanishing, becouse I think that one is not very important as well.--Max Welrod 08:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I do agree. We should have both or neither. –Elliot ^talk 09:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] 4th era!...or no?...

even everybody says that 3ird era is over it isnt! the date still reads 3e435!!!! ....................or it is a bug????????..................

The Eras are based off the Imperial Dynasties.. When the Septim Dynasty ends, so does the Third Era. It's not so much a bug as it is just not changing. Technically, if you've finished the Main Quest, the 4th Era has started.

I hope that answers your question. Ninja Hinder 13:39, 16 February 2009 (EST)

[edit] Suggestions:

The Daedra attempt to destroy the city of Bruma, and a hero went into the great geat and destroyed it, ending the attack.

The city of Kvatch is destroyed by the daedra, the count dies, and the hero of kvatch saves it's few survivors

The mythic dawn are broken up upon the death of their leader, Mankar Camoran

The current serving captain of the imperial gaurd, Adammus Philida, is killad by an assasin.

these are my suggestions. i will try to think of more, it is quite fun.--Arch-Mage Matt 19:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, actually, it all happened in the third era. The third era ends when martin dies. --Max Welrod 08:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Death of mannimarco

I don't think there are any cannon sources puting it on the fourth era. You could kill him before martin dies... I suggest we remove it until Bethesda creates canon lore (in-game or otherwise) stating when the king of worms died. --Max Welrod 08:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Basically, the way I see it is that the main quest happens and then all side quests happens (in terms of affecting lore). So, all the side quests happen in the Fourth Era. –Elliot ^talk 09:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

All right, then. Makes sense. --Max Welrod 05:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Applying that logic to Morrowind would mean that every faction quest was completed by the same person, which is impossible instead of merely ridiculous.132.162.67.58 01:54, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Lore can have multiple people in the game with just one being the Nerevarine. Or, they can pull a Warp of the West effect and solve it with chaos. Regardless, it isn't impossible (since everything does happen). –Elliot ^talk 01:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Necessarily. The only grounds you have for assuming that the Main Quest happens first is that the MQ is the first task given to the PC. Thus the PC's other actions followed the completion is the MQ. If multiple people were involved in the faction quests (which they obviously were), then you cannot assume that the MQ was resolved first.132.162.67.58 21:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

If multiple people were involved in the faction quests (which they obviously were) and then mean that every faction quest was completed by the same person, which is impossible instead of merely ridiculous: they kind of contradict. We can't assume either happens. Also, I am not against putting them in one section over the other, I just think we need to reach consensus. But a strong point is that the Imperial Library has the MQ within Oblivion happening after all of the side quests. Then they have the upcoming novels as the continuing of the Fourth Era. –Elliot ^talk 22:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Umbriel?

Okay, I just looked this up, and apparently it's a novel BASED on the Elder Scrolls. Why is it on this page? Is it written by someone directly affiliated with The Elder Scrolls series? Has information been released that there will be an eventual Umbriel? If not, I think it should be removed.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.127.90.245 (talk • contribs) on October 11, 2009.

While the Infernal City will not likely appear in a game, the book has been approved by Bethesda. This means that the event is likely canon and will at least be mentioned in future installments of the series. Since this site is dedicated to the entirty of the ES universe, the info should stay, unless Bethesda comes out and says otherwise. Dlarsh^{(Talk,Contribs,E-mail)} 01:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for clearing that up. I only did a little bit of research (searched the book title, heh), so I didn't know for sure or not. :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.127.90.245 (talk • contribs) on October 12, 2009.

[edit] Third or Fourth Era?

I'd like to propose that, since the end of TESIV is supposed to be the end of the third era, we adopt the policy that anything that happened in Oblivion, Shivering Isles, or Oblivion's Official Plug-ins be considered third era. --GK^Talk2me 01:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. It follows the same style that the IL uses, and it makes the most sense. –Elliot ^talk 03:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. The game's calendar never actually changes to the Fourth Era. Everything except for Umbriel in 4E40 should be considered Third Era. --Oblivion nerd 14:33, 18 October 2009 (UTC)