Skyrim talk:Skills/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Skills discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.
Semi Protection


Mystery Perks

Summaries of the PC Gamer article have reported a few extra skill perks. Master Trader is known to be Speech and Wax Key is presumably Lockpicking. But I don't know what to do with the other two:

  • Bribe lets you make guards forget about your bounty
  • Vanish forces your attacker to focus their attacks on another when entering combat in sneak mode

They both sound like Sneak perks, but don't seem to correspond to any of the Sneak perks reported by Sammuthegreat. I haven't been able to find a copy of PC Gamer myself yet, though. Should we just ignore these perks for now? Or any thoughts on where they belong? --NepheleTalk 23:05, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

This forum post makes bribing a "Speechcraft" skill. Then again it has a seperate skill "Mercantile" too. Anyway, bribing sounds like it's a "Speech" perk to me, but I cannot back it up. --Alfwyn 23:54, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for that forum post -- it filled in a bunch of missing names. I've gone ahead and added Bribe to Speech and Vanish to Sneak, as well as adding all the other names listed in that post. Now we just have to wait and see what the game actually says. --NepheleTalk 21:25, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Perk table organization

Should it be made standard to organize perk tables by skill level requirement? This seems as if it would be the most useful ordering convention for most readers. Asterai 21:38, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

It would yes, but we don't have the lists till the game comes out on 11/11/11. And any lists added before then without a proper Ref will probably be removed. --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 21:53, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Righto, but there are already a lot of lists up, skill reqs and all. I have the entirely unconfirmed notion that someone somewhere has legit or illicit access to the game and is kindly editing the wiki to reflect his/her knowledge. I just wanted to check in with the Wiki Collective before I reordered all the posted lists, see? Asterai 23:10, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I think the edit order is that someone has been posting the info to the Bethesda forums, then our editors have been copying it from there.
Nevertheless, to address your real question: see Block, Archery, and One-handed for examples of how I've been tweaking the tables over the last day. What I've been trying to do is have the primary order of the table be one where each branch of the tree is presented in order, from left to right across the tree. I like that order because it means that in most cases the prerequisite perk will be listed immediately above the one you're looking at. However, the table is also made to be sortable, so that anyone who wants to see them ordered from lowest to highest skill (or else alphabetically) just has to click a button. (And if you're really interested in skill perk trees, you might also want to see the discussion at Skyrim talk:Block for thoughts on how to map out the skill tree). --NepheleTalk 00:03, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Hand to Hand Replacement

I've heard several times that the Two Handed skill in Skyrim also applies as a replacement for the Hand to Hand skill in Oblivion. Is this true? The Skills page does not seem to indicate this. 00:19, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Only things I know of that increase H2H damage are the Khajit racial, gloves of pugilism, and the Heavy Armor perk that turns glove armor rating into weapon damage. I guess punching things is not meant to be a viable primary damage source in Skyrim. Allaryin 07:33, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Effects of Skill Increases

I've removed the following information that was just added to the article:

  • It should be noted that the skill level itself dose not directly effect in-game performance. For example, destruction spells will cost the same amount of magicka and do the same amount damage at skill level 15 as they will at skill level 100, only applicable perks in the destruction tree will effect magicka cost and damage of the spells.
  • Weapon damage is the same, a skill level above 15 will not increase weapon damage directly, a higher skill level will however unlock perks within the weapon skill tree that can be taken to increase damage.
  • Alchemy, lockpicking, sneak, pickpocket etc... likewise are the same, raising these skills will only unlock perks within their respective trees, only the perks directly influence gameplay.

From watching the Bethesda demo video, it is obvious that skill increases do increase weapon damage -- you can see the damage values shown for weapons in the character's inventory increase each time the character's one-handed skill increases. Furthermore, the leaked game manual explicitly stated that weapon damage is affected by weapon skills as well as perks, and that armor rating is affected by armor skills and perks. The leaked manual also mentions that Speech skill affects persuasion and merchant prices; that Sneak skill affects sneaking; that Pickpocket skill affects pickpocketing; etc. Given this evidence, and the fact that skill levels have directly affected gameplay statistics in past Elder Scrolls games, I'm pretty skeptical about statements to the contrary that are presented without any supporting evidence. --NepheleTalk 03:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm on closer inspection of the demo video the glass sword went from 13 damage to 14 damage between level ~21 and level ~25 in one handed skill. It seems I was wrong in this case(not that I mind), however I would like to point out why I thought that way; it just seemed to be redundant to have 20%-100% damage increasing perks if the skill itself raises damage. Likewise in spells, each tree has mana reducing perks and [effect] increasing perks, again it just seems to me that such perks are made redundant if the skill level itself effects these things. All in all though, it dose mean that characters who aren't 'pure' and thus cant invest as heavily in some perk trees wont be as gimped as I had feared.
Thanks for the clarification Nephele. Kronos 03:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't know that it's redundant, especially given that you only have 70 perks (and the last 20 of those will come very slowly). If you've run out of skill perks, there should still be some reward for increasing a skill from 15 to 100. And in Oblivion there were also multiple benefits from increasing a skill -- you'd get the slight weapon damage increase, but you'd also get additional bonuses automatically unlocked at 25, 50, 75, and 100. But it will be interesting to find out the relative importance of the perk improvements vs the skill-only improvements. --NepheleTalk 04:49, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
To the first point, if your out of perks (~70) that means your already leveled up to the hard-cap, thus your skills are all already at 100. In oblivion, the slight damage increase with the weapon skill was the only available way to increase the respective weapons damage(armorer dosnt count as its a diffrent skill 'unrelated' to the weapon itself). In Skyrim there are now perks that do the damage increasing, (+20-100% damage), making a similar 'effect' with skill increases 'seem' redundant(at my first glance). As far as how it plays out in-game with skill only vs. skill+perks, I can only surmise that its like a doubled effectiveness, (theoretical super endgame sword) has a 'base damage' of 50, add say +50(?) from having 100 skill for a total 100 'base damage'. Now with perks add to that another +100% for a 200 'base damage' sword.
So if it does work like this, a 'Mage' with no weapon perks but 100 skill, still has a powerful weapon, but a 'warrior' with applicable perks who 'specilized' is twice as effective with the same weapon. Conversely the 'mage' who perked out magic trees can cast 50-100%(?) cheaper and 50-100%(?) more powerful spells than the 'warrior'. Both are still endgame 'demigods' but only truly 'godlike' in the area's they spent perks.Kronos 06:03, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
At skill 15 mana cost is 150% of cost with skill 100 (i.e. 45 vs 30 mana respectively). With skill abobe 100 - cost not decreased. This is skill-dependance, not perks. alopex 11 November 2011

Perk Descriptions

For Skyrim:Heavy Armor I copied the ingame descriptions 1:1 (hopefully) to the table. Those could be annotated with additional information if need be. Or is copying the description exactly not that desireable? --Alfwyn 11:14, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Propose delete 'Pre-release message'

Skyrim has now been released (at least in Australia). Each perk list has been confirmed from the menu in game final release. How some effects are implemented at higher levels still requires testing, but the perk list and ranks are complete. I propose we remove the 'pre-release' message. — Unsigned comment by Alienangel (talkcontribs) on 11 November 2011

See UESPWiki:Task List#Skyrim and Category:Skyrim Pages Needing Verification for information on what needs to be done before removing the Pre-Release tags. It's something that needs to be done one page at a time, based on an editor checking that individual page to make sure the information is correct -- and not just the perk tree, but the skill description and the skill usage. Once you (or any other editor) has done that, you are free to remove the tag. It's not something that needs a community discussion. --NepheleTalk 13:36, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Perks from quests?

Does anyone have any details about which perks can be gained as rewards from which quests? Where should those be listed, here? Under the individual skill pages, or the location quest pages? I ran across a minor quest for the blacksmith in Windhelm (Recover Queen Freiya's Sword or something similar) and when I returned it he said something to the effect of "Let me teach you some smithing tricks". Unfortunately, the character in question was a master smith with 100 skill and all the perks up the heavy tree to Dragon Armor, so got no reward. Not sure where to list it. --QuillanTalk 14:02, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I think there is an entry on the Perks page. Just throw it up on the Smithing too.--Corevette789 14:10, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
The reward was just some smithing XP for me, no perk. --Alfwyn 17:17, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
There are quite a few minor quests which grant a skill level in one or two fields. No perks as far as I can see. --Ulkomaalainen 06:10, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


Only disappointment from the otherwise great combat system was the lack of having athletic abilities. How can u utilize a great feature like dual-wielding without being able to maneuver and evade properly? Any suggestions or tactics? — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 21:26 on November 18, 2011

More stamina and wear Light Armor :3 Mr. Squishy is squishy though. Rayce Kaiser 13:45, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Both Heavy and Light Armor trees provide inexpensive perks that eliminate movement speed penalties for being armored (or use Steed stone). Light Armor also provides a perk that gives you +50% stamina regen, which means you can sprint like a maniac if desired - esp if you combine with the One-Handed perk to do double power-attack damage while sprinting ;) Allaryin 07:28, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Skyrim Perk Calculator And Respec Tool

I just finde this nice tool in forums topic.[1] I do not know whether you can use it but for now it's probably the only application of its kind. — Unsigned comment by NEVER BoRN (talkcontribs) at 13:09 on November 26, 2011

What are the hardest skills to level?

In order to reach the maximum level with the least amount of difficulty, I plan on buying training for each level. I want to make sure that I am buying training however for the skills that are the most difficult to level through play. Any suggestions on which skills are the most difficult? It seems to me that perhaps lockpicking, pickpocketing and speach would be good choices...```` — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 22:34 on November 28, 2011

if you go out and buy skill training each level pickpocket should be the first skill to reach 100. Reason: After every single use of a trainer pickpocket the money you spent back (up to skill 51 training after that you need a whole stack of perks to have a chance). Lockpicking should be a close second if you just keep opening every lock you see. The two slowest to level are speech and restoration, third is conjuration. Even then speech can be leveled up in conjunction with alchemy by cycling buying/selling (note that merchants go buggy after having 32767 gold) the potions, the 2000+ you need to make (with the necklace of eminent haggling and improved thieves hood) should get you from 75 to 100 speech. For restoration use the turn/repel undead to speed up levelling since just healing won't get you far. Conjuration is slow due to the 'problem' of requiring atronarchs/daedra/corpses to get a decent level up, the best way is to (re)summon while fighting a dragon that is still airborne. 14:25, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Slightly different experience here, so it depends on playstile. Sneak was by far the first to reach 100, since I hardly leave sneak mode in unknown terrain. Lockpicking, archery and conjuration were (are, not at 100 yet) the runners-up (conjuration: bound weapons seem to bring way more exp than summoned creatures). Due to my play style all the combat skills (1H, 2H, HA, LA, BL, DE) are lagging way behind, and since I do not pickpocket that much it is also only in the midfield. Also, some skills are really easy to spam to 100 if you like that and have the patience, so getting them to a desired level is no problem at all (Sneak, Illusion, Conjuration, Alteration, Smithing, Alchemy, Enchanting if you're willing to pay for soul gems, the last three will also help your Haggling skill), so spending money on training them really isn't worth it, since you have only 5 trainings per level. The slowest will probably be combat skills from a way you do not use and, as has been said, restoration. But if you want to train them is another question, you level up quicker for stronger opponents without becoming stronger yourself. -- 21:48, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Search the speech page on here to see an easy way to level it and you can easily level resto by activating the atronach stone south of riften and going to any of the ruins with a fire trap and standing in the fire and continually cast healing and you can level conjuration by casting soul trap on a dead body. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 23:11 on December 7, 2011
Archery, One-handed and two-handed. Well they are easy to lvl too, but they take longer to max. All other skills have easy ways to gain level. speech persuade, pickpocket under 30% stealing (taking perks makes leveling harder), Lockpicking master and expert locks,spell schools using expert spells and crafting skills so easy iron dagger,banish and make most expensive potions.-- 17:01, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Skill increases and level increases

Is the note:

    Increasing developed skills leads to faster player level increases.

correct? It seems to me that an increase in my LOWER skills results in more progress toward level increases. 03:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I dont know whether the statement itself is true, that is however what the devs stated during previews. However half of what they stated was lies so who knows... JimmyDeSouza 01:31, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
It is correct, because when you level up a skill you get that level as experience, for example reaching level 20 sneak gives you 20xp towards your next level while reaching level 80 in sneak would give you 80 (4 times more) experience towards your next level. Leveling up is determined by a math formula (you can find it on the wiki) with each level requiring more experience. You will notice when you level up higher skills the bar moves more toward a level up then going from 15 to 16 in a skill--Lord.Baal 06:33, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Why does leveling some skills make you progress so much quicker than others? Like if you start as a cat and level by sneaking the progress bar goes up by loads. But if you level by crafting the progress bar goes up only a tiny bit. Training always makes the level progress bar go up by a tiny bit. Like it takes 10 levels by training, but only 5 if you just level by sneaking a lot I think. Can you explain how it worlks properly? — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 06:46 on December 21, 2011

Skill Leveling

I noticed every skill has its own section about this and also under notes there are usually 5+ methods for leveling the skill. I was wondering if an admin could make a page I would work on for just generic skill leveling tips and tricks. I believe Oblivion had an article page on it, and something like generic combat strategies. I think its better to have one main page for leveling tips and strategies rather then every page be 1/3 about personal leveling tips. I open to opinions but it seems people really want to talk about how they level skills and I wouldn't mind trying to start an article from scratch. Thanks--Lord.Baal 07:01, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

NPC Skills Question


Do NPCs have skill perks? Or just the skills. I personally don't think they have, but for instance if they can have Bone Crusher (Blunt Weapons) then increasing armor beyond 567 would still make sense. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 10:26 on December 10, 2011

A few of us over on Skyrim Nexus have pieced together that NPCs do take advantage of perks. The modder Mysty (mod: Balanced Magic) has deconstructed and reconstructed the magic skill trees and mentioned in the comments that they have discovered that they have perks. I've personally been Shield Charged by my housecarl, and seen him go down twice by Deep Freeze from a Briarheart. I've also console added perks to my followers and made them more effective (even changing their combat AI just thru adding perks). — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 05:45 on January 1, 2012

Drained Skills

I noticed that I had my One-Handed skill 'drained'. When I went into the skill screen, it would show my skill level as '15' in red numbers, but if I moved in to select a perk, the current skill on the left indicated its previous value of '83'. There was no indication that there were any negative effects on me when looking in the 'Active Effects' tab on the magic menu. I noticed that this drain happened sometime between the start and finish of Meridia's quest — whether that has anything to do with the drain, I do not know. Reloading a save that already has the drain, restarting Skyrim, and using any of the shrines did nothing to correct it; however, leveling the skill has left it showing a white '84'. — Unsigned comment by Skynaku (talkcontribs) at 16:51 on December 10, 2011

Had a similar problem once with sneak (which also dropped to 15 from 70something). No effect shown on magic page, waiting did not help. Only cure was to reload a save from before this happening. --Ulkomaalainen 06:07, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I had the same problem on the PC with One-Handed -- went from 64 to 15 for no discernible reason. I then used the console command incpcs onehanded to increase one skill level, and suddenly it was back up to its full level, showing 65 instead of the 16 I expected. Makes me wonder if my functional skill level was always 64 regardless of what showed on the skill screen. Another bug, blast it! -- Wordmama 00:08, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Sure you didn't all have diseases? I've had this happen, but a quick blessing at a nearby altar fixed it immediately. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 07:04 on January 10, 2012
Yes, certainly no disease. Tried the altar, plus the setback from 7x to 15 cannot come from a disease, plus diseases show up as magical effects. --Ulkomaalainen 21:52, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I just had this happen to me with Archery. Was at 48 but the skill showed 15 in red no diseases etc. I was about ready to level Archery and Level-up so I played through and heres what I found. No effect on skill, it took 2 arrows to take down a Draugr before and during the lowered skill display - about half the time they went to their knees as before. If you go into the Archery Perk Tree it shows the actual skill value properly. When I Leveled up - Archery was the leveling skill - the skill properly showed 49 in white and all other level gains were there. Conclusion: Its a value display glitch only - no worries mates. Philbert 20:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The difference in damage between having a skill of 48 and a skill of 15 should only be around 17% if I'm reading the formula correctly, so it might be affecting you and yet still only take two arrows for you to kill something. You can't know it's only a display glitch by testing it that way, unfortunately. -Vardis 20:27, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
True, and I'm playing on a PS3 so I can't get some of the pr-hit stats like a PC user can, I'd love to hear someone with that capability chime in. I will point out that if you go into the skill tree of the affected skill it does show the right number and at 15 - 25 skill it was taking me more than 2 arrows to down a Draugr. During the glitch their health bar went to almost nil on the first hit, nil on the second. It looked like the same damage. But, I could be wrong, there are a lot of other factors such as the level of the Draugr, sneak skill, and perks. But the bow and arrow were the same style, glass & iron. Got the glass early in this playthrough. Philbert 07:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I experienced this glitch with my archery - it nerfed my damage output significantly. The damage value displayed on my bows all dropped, and I was no longer 1-shotting bandits etc. Leveling the skill once corrected it. Seems like it's becoming a pretty common bug. 20:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Oblivion Replaced skills

Now not really sure how these talk pages work, so anyway just informing you all that Oblivion skills that have been replaced, not including ones don't have singuralary-difined replace, but ones that have. Such as Marksman and Security. Now I've added them, but I wanted to sort of make sure if its alright. (Not really sure how to signature posts) — Unsigned comment by Balen Othrii (talkcontribs) at 11:46 on December 24, 2011

I doubt the reason for the rename of security was the new lockpicking system. 'Security' made sense in Morrowind when you did both disarming and picking locked doors and chests, but it's better to just call it 'lockpicking' now. Shynaku 20:11, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Quality of item upgraded DOES give you more experience in smithing.

"For Smithing, however, only the number of forged items matter, not the quality nor the amount of resources it took to forge that item." This is false. I used the restoration glitch to boost my smithing skill in order to upgrade a pair of hide bracers to the damage reduction cap and my smithing skill went from 15 to 50 just by upgrading this one item from AR 5 to AR 900.--RumblePen 15:53, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I also noticed the more you can improve something the more experience you get from it. I suspect you get more experience for creating more expensive things, but I'll test it out before changing the page. -Vardis 20:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Free Skill Boosts

It has bothered me for some time that there is not a page for Skyrim which lists the 'free' skill boosts the player can gain access to via rewards and actions, like this page for Oblivion. Each individual skill page lists most of these already (which is where I got most of them), but I thought there should be a centralized location where players could find the information all in one place. So I added a table to this page with the same information. It kind of seems out of place here, but I wasn't sure where else to put it. If this would be better on its own page, will a more experienced editor help make that happen? I'm not sure how to go about that sort of thing. Alphabetface 08:24, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, I'm sure most of the ones from radiant quests, and the ones to all skills from a skill-group are accurate as I've done many of them myself, but the Bard's Leap Summit and Archery Practice information was simply copy/pasted from other pages, and they seem a little... iffy. There were no 'VN' tags on the pages where they're mentioned, but I'm not sure if they're always accurate. Anyone know? I don't want to put the VN tags on there unnecessarily, but I don't want to be the cause of inaccurate information being posted on another page either. Alphabetface 13:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
This section has now been expanded and moved onto its own page here— Skyrim:Free_Skill_Boosts. Enjoy! --Alphabetface 17:20, 8 February 2012 (UTC)


The current skill set structure posted in the wiki is wrong concerning which skills belong to which classes.

  • Enchant falls under the Warrior, NOT the Mage. Upon closer review I have found that the Enchant skill tree enhances weapons and armor. Mages have no weapons (not including staves) or armor. Also, the in-game menu displays the constellation as beginning the Warrior group, on red background.
    • The six Warrior skills should read as: Enchanting; Smithing; Heavy Armor; Block; Two-Handed; One-Handed
  • Archery falls under the Thief, NOT the Mage. By any standard, Archery is never considered a Warrior trait. It is however universally known as a Thief trait. Also, the in-game menu displays the constellation as beginning the Thief group, on green background.
    • The six Thief skills should read as: Archery; Light Armor; Sneak; Lockpicking; Pickpocket; Speech
  • Alchemy falls under the Mage; NOT the Thief. Elderscrolls has never placed Alchemy under a Thief's profession. Making potions and poisons has always been a Mage's job. Also, the in-game menu displays the constellation as beginning the Mage group, on blue background.
    • The six Mage skills should read as: Alchemy; Illusion; Conjuration; Destruction; Restoration; Alteration

I have not confirmed these claims, but I believe that if you activate a guardian stone for a particular class the opposing skill will not level up as quickly and vice-versa. (i.e. Activate the Warrior Stone and attempt to level up Archery. Afterwards, activate the Thief Stone and attempt to level up Archery. The Thief stone should raise Archery faster.) -Just a Skyrim Gamer

This type of material belongs on the TALK PAGE, because it is conjecture. If it is a verifiable fact, then it belongs on the page, but this is only opinion that is up for discussion.
As for the information at hand, nuh-uh :) Each group of skills has one crafting skill. Warrior has Smithing, Thief has Alchemy, and Magic has Enchanting. Proof: You find enchanting tables with the mages, and the master trainer is at the College of Winterhold, the HQ for mages. Alchemy belongs under Thief because that is the skill that makes poisons. Archery is just as useful to Warriors as it is for Thieves.
As for the Standing Stones, you're flat wrong. I guess you're right. My bad. • JATalk 06:49, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
I checked the CK, and you are partially right. Archery is a Thief skill. Thief has 7 skills, Warrior 5, and Mage 6. IIRC some (all?) of the previous games also had an uneven allocation of skills. Thanks for bringing this up.
If anyone wants to verify for themselves, this data is held in doomThiefPerk, doomWarriorPerk, and doomMagePerk.
Also, I think the in-game skills menu background is a little hard to definitively say what they had in mind (if we couldn't look it up in the game data directly), but if you look at the color of the skill tree lines themselves, you'll notice that the colors go from red for Smithing to violet for Enchanting. -Vardis 07:44, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
While that may be true, that appears to only apply to the doomstones - the skills themselves are divided into Stealth, Combat, and Magic, which is entirely different. Robin Hoodtalk 07:54, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure I follow. The description for the Warrior stone is that it increases all combat skills by 20%. Archery skill gains are not increased. Is there somewhere else in the game where Archery is classified as a Combat skill? The only other reference I'm finding for those terms is in LItemPotionFortify<category>Skills, and Archery is in both Stealth and Combat. It's not in the manual, unless I'm just blind. -Vardis 08:37, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I saw your one comment referencing Character/Actor Values, but if that's the criteria being used, Alchemy is a Magic skill. -Vardis 08:44, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
You're right, it is. I've fixed it. I think you have a point here—people will be expecting these things to match up, so we should definitely note the discrepancies somewhere, since they obviously don't. For the time being, though, I don't think we should change the Specialization, since we don't really know how Specialization affects your character. It may well be a useless holdover from Oblivion for all we know. For now, I've changed just this page, but presumably the Specialization pages and Standing Stone page will need to be updated as well. I don't have time myself right now, but if you wanna take a crack at it, go nuts. Can't say I'm looking forward to all the confusion this is gonna cause! :-/ Robin Hoodtalk 09:15, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

() So we have a few options, keep it the way it was before you just changed it, base the categories on what is in the CK under Character/Actor values, base them off the in-game categories associated with the Guardian Stones, or some other option. I don't see any functionality working off the Actor values skill info, but that's an unknown. The Guardian Stones are the only in-game reference I'm aware of that I see regarding combat/stealth/magic skills, they are a very visible reference, and they are what the most people going to think of when looking at the skill categories. This probably isn't the sort of thing they had in mind when writing about Creation Kit discrepancies, but then again maybe it is. Hopefully someone with more skill trawling the CK will be able to dig up more info on this. Unless we find some use for the category in the CK though, I strongly favor eventually basing them off what the Guardian Stones affect. I'll go update any other pages I can find that are affected by moving Alchemy to Magic. I sort of regret pointing that out, that was intended to be a "well Alchemy is Magic, and isn't that crazy, so clearly we should ignore that data" comment. :) -Vardis 09:31, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

So when you choose a path in the Oghma Infinium, does it consider the groups classified as most of us thought before, or this newly-found way? Same question for the miscellaneous quests from the Bards College, are the skills grouped the way we thought or did we have that wrong? Alphabetface 13:49, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
I think all of the information about specializations should be restored to the original information and this new information should be added to the relevant pages as a bug.
Based on all of the pre-release developer interviews the original specialization/skill information matched the intended organization of those skills. The guardian stones do not define the specializations, but rather are one aspect of the game that are supposed to reflect the specializations. As Alphabetface points out there are several quest bonuses that are also organized around the specializations, and those bonuses match up with the original specialization information. Every other place where a reference is made to the specializations, they match up with the original information. I don't think one piece of new information should override everything else we know about the game. It's a single bug that was overlooked by the developers, and should be treated as such. --NepheleTalk 15:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Looking through the perks, I can confirm that it looks like 5 skills for Warrior, 6 skills for Mage and 7 skills for Thief. That is quite opposite of what this page documents now (the CK currently seems to show only the first CDTA field of the perks, cslist shows them all, just ignore the meaning it tries to give the first conditional parameter). I agree it should be changed back to the original 6/6/6 for now and the exception mentioned at the doomstones. --Alfwyn 17:14, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm going to bow out of this discussion for now because honestly, I haven't had the time to play the game enough to have a feel for where Specialization comes into play and where it doesn't. It sounds like my initial impression was correct, but clearly, Nephele is much better versed in this than I am, and I suspect Alfwyn is too. :) Robin Hoodtalk 20:25, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, it looks a bit like the game doesn't make much use of the skill categorizations at all. The night sky gives a fuzzy definition for the skills at the border. I documented the only hard data I could dig up at User:Alfwyn/Sandbox3, the quest data was verified ingame, the guardian stone data using game data and assuming that the numbers reference Tes5Mod:Actor Value Indices. I'd like to hear about any other ingame observable skill categorization that can be found, or ingame verification of the guardian stone data. --Alfwyn 20:41, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
I verified ingame that the Thief Stone affects archery. 7 skill points per hit before, 9 per hit after. I do see an interview with Todd Howard where he talks about skill categories and Alchemy specifically. He's a bit wishy-washy about it though, saying "it doesn’t matter that much anymore (stealth/magic/combat categories) – but [Alchemy's] sort of in our stealth category now." It is clearly grouped with the Stealth skills in the reward from Oghma Infinium and the Bard's college quests, as is Archey with Combat. Archery is in both the combat and stealth group for the leveled list of fortify potions. Honestly, it's hard to know sometimes what's a bug and what's intended with them. I'd be surprised if they ever bother to fix the Guardian Stone perks if it is a bug even though it'd be trivial to fix. I don't see anything else in game using the terms stealth/magic/combat for skills, but I'd agree that the intent appears to be how they originally appeared here. -Vardis 21:21, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

←First off, thank you guys SOOOOOO much for even taking the time to consider my 'Argument'. This topic was my very first wiki post/edit and I wasn't sure where to put it (sorry I put it on the front page). I see that some people have said that 'it doesn't matter anyway' or 'I see no reason why it would effect classes', however it does effect players like me. Most of the time I build my characters based on video game heroes (for example, my first and current Skyrim character is 'Link' from The Legend of Zelda'). Recently I wanted to build Ezio from Assassin's Creed, and since he is a master of stealth I wanted to max out all of the stealth skills, but Alchemy (even with the poisons) just seemed wrong...and the elimination of Archery seemed even worse. After searching the web I felt like everybody was only agreeing with the setups because everybody else was reading the same information and convincing themselves on how it fit into the puzzle. I also believe that the skills under each class should be even @ 6-6-6 (However, someone that knows than me about these games said that it can sometimes be uneven, so I may trust that.)
ABOUT ENCHANTING - I understand that the master trainer is a Mage BUT Alea the Huntress of The Companions is an Archery trainer and she belongs to a combat based guild, yet we have uncovered that the Archery is a Thief skill. And I still assert that Enchant (in this game) has no effect on anything that a Mage does. Mages have no weapons to enchant. Mages have no armor to enchant. Look at the sub-skill Soul Siphon. Soul Siphon traps 5% of the victim's soul recharging the weapon with a Death Blow to creatures. Mages have no weapon to perform a death blow with! I hope I'm making sense.
ABOUT 'Every Class Has a Crafting Skill' - Where is this confirmed, officially? Who said that Skyrim's classes where set up to have class-significant crafting skills? Again, I believe that someone has viewed these as crafting options and has tried to Make Sense of their place in the skill tree. I have read nothing that indicates that this game has designated crafting skills for the three classes, Mage, Warrior, and Thief.
←In the end the skills Alchemy, Archery, and Enchant maybe skills that transcend two classes (which is why their colors seem to mix green & blue, blue & red, and red & green and why they END & START a class's skill grouping in the in-game menu). Even then, the 3 classes would have 5 skills a piece and 3 transitional skills making an even playing field.
←THANK YOU GUYS AGAIN!!!! I am so happy to have started this conversation, you make me want to join your community. I love thinking people. Again, check the standing stones on those other 2 skills. Thanks. -Just A Skyrim Gamer-- 23:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The pages should be restored to their original 6/6/6. As Nephele mentioned, this is most likely a bug or something overlooked by the devs. There is no proof that the skills are in a separate specialization than indicated. elliot (talk) 23:41, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
THIS PAGE is excellent work by Alfwyn. Clearly there is a some sense of agreement about what the developers thought, at least with regard to all but one skill (archery) and in that case, two of the three evidences point to archery as a war/combat class, and all three evidences point to alchemy as a thief/stealth class. It should be listed 6/6/6 everywhere except the guardian stone & archery pages, where the difference is noted as it relates to choosing a doom stone perk. ----A Caveman 02:04, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm confused. Did we ever establish which standing stone actually affects Alchemy? It wasn't clear from this discussion. My apologies. I somehow missed the fact that that was a link to Alfwyn's work. It is very clear and very helpful. Thank you, Alfwyn. -- 16:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
According to the game data it's The Thief Stone. --Alfwyn 16:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
RE:"And I still assert that Enchant (in this game) has no effect on anything that a Mage does. Mages have no weapons to enchant. Mages have no armor to enchant. Look at the sub-skill Soul Siphon. Soul Siphon traps 5% of the victim's soul recharging the weapon with a Death Blow to creatures. Mages have no weapon to perform a death blow with!"
First, the idea that mages don't benefit from enchanting is just incorrect. You can enchant your clothing as well as armor (yes, some mages wear armor) with fortify effects to give yourself more magicka or reduce the cost of your spells from a particular school of magic. Also, you assume a mage would never carry an enchanted weapon to use instead of having to switch spells and use magicka when an enemy has already closed (or when out of magicka). I see it as a coincidence that there are 4 perks in the tree that are significantly more combat oriented. -- 20:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


does adding a perk show it filled in the level up screen?

ex if i unlock expert restoration in the console comand on next level up can i take master restoration with the perk point? and does this break my access to taking the adapt restoration perk on level up? — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 01:06 on 28 February 2012

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